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Re: Japan

Postby Grammatron » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:30 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
Grammatron wrote:I guess women aren't equal after all.


Equal's got nothing to do with it.

Women and men are different. They have different needs and preferences.


Packed subways exist outside of Japan without the need for separation based on gender.
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Re: Japan

Postby Anaxagoras » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:44 am

Grammatron wrote:
Anaxagoras wrote:
Grammatron wrote:I guess women aren't equal after all.


Equal's got nothing to do with it.

Women and men are different. They have different needs and preferences.


Packed subways exist outside of Japan without the need for separation based on gender.


Why are there gyms and fitness clubs that are only for women?

Apparently it's coming to Germany:
A German rail operator is introducing woman-only carriages. Is this progressive or depressing?

Why are there rideshare apps for women only? Even in :freedom:. I guess women aren't equal after all?

It's not so different.
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Re: Japan

Postby Grammatron » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:55 am

Anaxagoras wrote:Why are there gyms and fitness clubs that are only for women?

Apparently it's coming to Germany:
A German rail operator is introducing woman-only carriages. Is this progressive or depressing?

Why are there rideshare apps for women only? Even in :freedom:. I guess women aren't equal after all?

It's not so different.


I don't think it's appropriate to compare private clubs with public transportation and I'll skip the joke about Japan and Germany making things great again.

Yet still all your examples do is highlight a simple fact: if women want to have special privileges and protection from men there's no other way to do it then to discriminate against men. If you are discriminating against an entire sex how that's equality?
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Re: Japan

Postby Anaxagoras » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:55 am

Grammatron wrote:Yet still all your examples do is highlight a simple fact: if women want to have special privileges and protection from men there's no other way to do it then to discriminate against men. If you are discriminating against an entire sex how that's equality?


I'm not a radical feminist who thinks that sex is just a social construct, so I don't need to pretend that "equality" has to mean men and women should be treated exactly the same in all situations. For example, it would be ridiculous for the Army to try to achieve "gender parity" like some tech companies these days seem to think they should. I'm against military conscription, but if there were conscription I would say that it should mainly apply to men, as it traditionally has. If in the natural course of things more men than women choose to be computer programmers as a career choice, I don't think we necessarily need to make extraordinary efforts to get more women to make that as a career choice. Nor do I think that we need to make extraordinary efforts to eliminate the "gender pay gap" as long as it results from people freely choosing their own careers and employment situations.

As far as women-only train cars, the question I ask myself is: am I grossly inconvenienced by this? If the answer were yes, I would be against it, but I think the answer is no. If you don't obsess about it because "I'm being repressed!!1!" the practical effect is virtually nil. My commute on the whole is no more or less unpleasant as a result of it. The train car is not noticeably more crowded and generally speaking the women-only car appears to be just as crowded on average. How about handicapped parking spaces or the seats that are supposed to be reserved for the elderly, handicapped or pregnant women? I can see the reason for those and I can live with it. Those people have special needs. Maybe women do too? From a utilitarian perspective, if the aggregate utility they get from this is greater than the tiny little inconvenience to me, I don't begrudge it.
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Re: Japan

Postby Grammatron » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:28 am

All jokes aside, I suspect you are a decent human being and have not groped people (men or women) on subway (without their consent anyway). Yet when society creates little "Safe spaces" like that it does more than protect women it perpetuates the notion that all men are rapists and molesters. And so you are denied entry to that car, but it's not a matter of inconvenience it's the implication that you might get all handsy and rapey, why should you be ok with that?
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Re: Japan

Postby Witness » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:37 am

shuize wrote:
Witness wrote:I wonder what the frustration level is, in Japan. :?

I live in Japan. But I regularly thank whatever Shinto spirits watch over this land that I do not work as a salaryman here.
You are wise. :mrgreen:

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Re: Japan

Postby Anaxagoras » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:09 am

Grammatron wrote:All jokes aside, I suspect you are a decent human being and have not groped people (men or women) on subway (without their consent anyway). Yet when society creates little "Safe spaces" like that it does more than protect women it perpetuates the notion that all men are rapists and molesters. And so you are denied entry to that car, but it's not a matter of inconvenience it's the implication that you might get all handsy and rapey, why should you be ok with that?


Ah, well, I guess I choose to not take it personally. I know that I'm not the one who caused the problem in the first place, but there was a real problem. I suspect it's not as bad as it used to be since they started taking the issue seriously. Then again, I really don't know since I'm not in the demographic of people who are targeted by the gropers.

Here's an article that was published about the problem last year:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-07/w ... rs/8166672

I agree that women-only train cars aren't the ideal solution. In a perfect world there wouldn't be any gropers.
It's a crummy solution for a crummy world. Catching these creeps isn't so easy. They tend to pick their targets and opportunities to minimize the chance of getting caught. I've never seen it happen in front of me. But since my own daughter is one of the people who might be a target, if she wants to use the women-only car, I'm happy that that option is available to her. I can't be there myself most times to protect her because we usually take different trains at different times. I do know that this actually happened to my wife when she was young. AFAIK, it hasn't happened to my daughter yet.
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Re: Japan

Postby Anaxagoras » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:48 am

To get a rough idea of the scale of the problem, let's look at the basic math:

Tokyo's rush hour by the numbers

According to Train-Media, the daily number of train passengers in the Greater Tokyo Area is approximately 20 million. This is more than the individual populations of over 100 countries in the world. Annual train ridership is a staggering 13 billion people, or twice the population of the entire world! By comparison, Germany's trains only transport 10 million passengers per year, or less than 1% of the trains in Tokyo, yet its population is only a little more than twice that of the Greater Tokyo Area.

The trains operating in Tokyo are involved in a mass migration movement. It is therefore no wonder they are often crowded. But just how crowded exactly? I'll take an example from a line that I ride nearly every day, the Denen Toshi line from Tokyu railway. It runs between Shibuya in Tokyo and Chuo Rinkan stations in Yokohama. According to Train Media, daily ridership on this line is approximately 1.2 million passengers. Thus, the average number of passengers transported per hour is about 64,000 since the trains only operate between 5 AM and midnight. According to the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism the hourly number of passengers increases to nearly 80,000 during morning rush hour, but I am certain it is even higher than that. The congestion factor on this line during morning rush hour is 191%, implying the train cars carry twice as many passengers as they are built to accommodate. This pamphlet from the ministry defines 100% occupancy as people being able to sit down on a seat, or hold on to a strap or a pole. At 150% people can still read an unfolded newspaper, but by 180% one may only be able to read a folded newspaper. At 200% bodies touch each other there is some pressure. The highest reported value is 250%, which means that whenever the train shakes, not only the body has to incline and cannot move, but one cannot hold on to a strap or post either. People are literally sandwiched between each other, just like sardines in a tin.

Now we have all the information that we need to build a picture of Tokyo's morning rush hour traffic. With an hourly ridership of 80,000 passengers, each train having 10 cars with an area of approximately 56 m2, and there being about 25 trains per hour, the number of people packed into one square metre is about 6, and assuming a random positioning of people all standing in the train, the average distance between people is just 40 cm. Given that the typical shoulder width of adult males is 40 cm and their typical depth is 24 cm, there is indeed not much more room left to pack additional individuals: the total number of people that can be 'stacked' into square metre is about 9, but in practise it is very difficult to get past 7. The value of 6 is comparable to some rough counts of people within my arm's length in each direction of me that I have done over the past few months. And just for reference, when the congestion factor is 250%, the average interpersonal distance decreases to 35 cm. This is indeed very close to the maximum practical density, and by itself is a good reason to avoid rush hour as much as possible.


Image
10pm on a weekday on the Denen Toshi line


So during rush hour, that's an average of about 3200 people per 10-car train (although no necessarily all at the same time, but in practice most of the passengers will be going between the busiest stations). Sometimes more of course, but let's just take the average.
Let's say half of them are men (it's probably more than half, but to keep things simple). So 1600 men per train. The vast majority of the men aren't gropers of course, but what percentage are? If it's 1 in 1600 or more that would mean that there's a groper on every train. If 1 in 160, there's one in every car. I have no idea what the actual percentage is, but as you can see, even if it's a very small minority, it would add up to a huge problem in the aggregate.

Maybe there are alternative ways. Install cameras in every car. Still, it's not an easy problem to stamp out.
So it's maybe not the best solution, but maybe it's better than nothing.
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Re: Japan

Postby Rob Lister » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:34 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
Grammatron wrote:I guess women aren't equal after all.


Equal's got nothing to do with it.

Women and men are different. They have different needs and preferences.


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Re: Japan

Postby ed » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:30 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
Grammatron wrote:Yet still all your examples do is highlight a simple fact: if women want to have special privileges and protection from men there's no other way to do it then to discriminate against men. If you are discriminating against an entire sex how that's equality?


I'm not a radical feminist who thinks that sex is just a social construct, so I don't need to pretend that "equality" has to mean men and women should be treated exactly the same in all situations. For example, it would be ridiculous for the Army to try to achieve "gender parity" like some tech companies these days seem to think they should. I'm against military conscription, but if there were conscription I would say that it should mainly apply to men, as it traditionally has. If in the natural course of things more men than women choose to be computer programmers as a career choice, I don't think we necessarily need to make extraordinary efforts to get more women to make that as a career choice. Nor do I think that we need to make extraordinary efforts to eliminate the "gender pay gap" as long as it results from people freely choosing their own careers and employment situations.

As far as women-only train cars, the question I ask myself is: am I grossly inconvenienced by this? If the answer were yes, I would be against it, but I think the answer is no. If you don't obsess about it because "I'm being repressed!!1!" the practical effect is virtually nil. My commute on the whole is no more or less unpleasant as a result of it. The train car is not noticeably more crowded and generally speaking the women-only car appears to be just as crowded on average. How about handicapped parking spaces or the seats that are supposed to be reserved for the elderly, handicapped or pregnant women? I can see the reason for those and I can live with it. Those people have special needs. Maybe women do too? From a utilitarian perspective, if the aggregate utility they get from this is greater than the tiny little inconvenience to me, I don't begrudge it.


This requires a longer reply than I can give at the moment but consider this: forget whether or not you are inconvenienced, what is the principle behind this action? Is that principle acceptable on our society?
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Re: Japan

Postby Anaxagoras » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:10 pm

ed wrote:This requires a longer reply than I can give at the moment but consider this: forget whether or not you are inconvenienced, what is the principle behind this action? Is that principle acceptable on our society?


Sounds vaguely Kantian. Are you familiar with Kant's categorical imperative? Do you lean more toward deontology or consequentialism philosophically? I'm more of a consequentialist myself.

In simple English, I think less about abstract principles or rules than about the consequences of things.
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Re: Japan

Postby Doctor X » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:26 pm

Image

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Re: Japan

Postby Grammatron » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:51 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:Ah, well, I guess I choose to not take it personally. I know that I'm not the one who caused the problem in the first place, but there was a real problem. I suspect it's not as bad as it used to be since they started taking the issue seriously. Then again, I really don't know since I'm not in the demographic of people who are targeted by the gropers.

That's the thing, it's not personal at all. In fact it takes all individuality out of it -- I personally am of the opinion that individual liberty is paramount to a free society but that may be a different topic.
Here's an article that was published about the problem last year:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-07/w ... rs/8166672

I agree that women-only train cars aren't the ideal solution. In a perfect world there wouldn't be any gropers.
It's a crummy solution for a crummy world. Catching these creeps isn't so easy. They tend to pick their targets and opportunities to minimize the chance of getting caught. I've never seen it happen in front of me. But since my own daughter is one of the people who might be a target, if she wants to use the women-only car, I'm happy that that option is available to her. I can't be there myself most times to protect her because we usually take different trains at different times. I do know that this actually happened to my wife when she was young. AFAIK, it hasn't happened to my daughter yet.


There are all kinds of people in this world who commit all kinds of crimes and for certain crimes most get away with it. I think better enforcement by authorities and a better attitude by average people would go a long way; someone gropes a person on a packed subway the implication is that everyone around just ok with letting it happen.

So during rush hour, that's an average of about 3200 people per 10-car train (although no necessarily all at the same time, but in practice most of the passengers will be going between the busiest stations). Sometimes more of course, but let's just take the average.
Let's say half of them are men (it's probably more than half, but to keep things simple). So 1600 men per train. The vast majority of the men aren't gropers of course, but what percentage are? If it's 1 in 1600 or more that would mean that there's a groper on every train. If 1 in 160, there's one in every car. I have no idea what the actual percentage is, but as you can see, even if it's a very small minority, it would add up to a huge problem in the aggregate.

Why are you assuming that it's only a problem in one direction in that only men grope women?
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Re: Japan

Postby Doctor X » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:47 pm

The vast majority are male offenders against usually young women and teens. Just like you can find a few women who molest boys in Freedom the occasional female chikan hits the news, and it is sensational. Searching for Loli Tentacle hentai Hillary Clinton slash-fiction evidences--you are welcome--I found one case . . . where the perpetrator turned out to be a cross-dresser.

The problem appears cultural. I will avoid a Wall of Text on that load of mess. It is not a new problem at all. Part of it may be the shame idea--"it is your fault, you did something"--that would make a Jewish Mother or the Spanish Inquisition blanch, the other may be the reticence to "get involved." I do not know . . . I fear the Wall of Text. . . .

I was then going to suggest a female perspective would help, but I have no idea how to provide that. And, no, no "Anax's waifu and 妹さん jokes" because aside from the obvious privacy, how the hell do you have that conversation? Even as reporters: "Greetings, can you tell me about molestation?" Even Rocket News, which Your Mom tells me she reads to you, discusses the problem in a number of articles but not really the source.

Further searching provided enough porn links that my Mac is quietly sitting in a corner staring back at me . . . ashamed . . . and feeling "like a cheap Dell!"

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Re: Japan

Postby Grammatron » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:59 pm

If the problem is cultural then IMHO the solution is to change the culture not to label all men as potential rapists and all women as unable to defend themselves.

And not to get particularly Godwinny, but the solution for separate cars seems to stem from the same place as the solutions in Saudi Arabia to cover all women to protect them from men.
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Re: Japan

Postby Doctor X » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:16 pm

Grammatron wrote:If the problem is cultural then IMHO the solution is to change the culture not to label all men as potential rapists and all women as unable to defend themselves.


Good luck.

Again trying to avoid Your Mom t3h D34dly Wall of Text, but cultural change takes a very, very long time along with a few cataclysmi . . . catalism . . . catastrophic events usually involving a general named after a Native American or a plane named after . . . YOUR [Col. Tibetts'--Ed.] MOM. One of the survivors of Hiroshima worked in a bank. As she smiled retelling it, the women came to work a half-an-hour earlier than the men to clean the bank! "That doesn't happen now!"

Women still get treated differently--Anax can write more about mainland attitudes--but over the long term things change.

Same with racism in :freedom: Heck, consider how attitudes have changed with regards to accepting, say, gay marriage over the time of existence of this very The Captain's Road Gang. The problem is it is never "perfect," and we [We?--Ed.] have to deal with the current level of problems.

And not to get particularly Godwinny, but the solution for separate cars seems to stem from the same place as the solutions in Saudi Arabia to cover all women to protect them from men.


In a lot of [cis-hegemonic white privileged--Ed.] male societies. Consider the whole "honor killing" crapolla that is not actually Islamic but cultural. You see that in none "A-Rabby" cultures. Recall how Bonasera proudly tells Don Corleone that his daughter "kept her honor!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZiAO-WD5UI

she is got beaten, nearly murdered, good thing she was not raped. I have previously blathered about a film from the 2000s Japan--Freeze Me--about a woman who is shamed for being raped years before. Being "spoiled." The sources of such is another Wall of Text.

Back to the specific point, could you fault Anax for wanting his daughter when she was a teen to travel in an "all girls" train to school or her for wanting to travel on one? But all "Gram's Mom Jokes[Available on 8-track and cassette.--Ed.]" aside, I understand how the "solution" appears to perpetuate the problem. See "Separate but Equal."

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Re: Japan

Postby Grammatron » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:01 pm

If I gave an impression that I think Japan should get this all sorted out tomorrow then I apologize. My only point was that separate but equal doesn't work and when you treat a group like that they are not equal. But I absolutely agree that it takes time to change the attitude of people on the subjects of equality and consent.

On the other hand, while Anax is a progressive fellow he seems to be of the opinion that separate but equal is ok in this scenario. And sure, I understand that he has daughters and would like them not to experience any trauma if possible.

Japan is an interesting society to say the least.
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Re: Japan

Postby Doctor X » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:50 pm

You do not need to apologize. The only one who needs to apologize is . . .



. . .


. . . *snicker! snicker! snort!*




. . . shiny!

Grammatron wrote:On the other hand, while Anax is a progressive fellow he seems to be of the opinion that separate but equal is ok in this scenario. And sure, I understand that he has daughters and would like them not to experience any trauma if possible.


Which brings us to practical problems. From Rocket News we have the lovely report of molesters using social media to organize groping during the two day "Center Test"--huge ass college admissions test anime and manga teens are always studying for--where tons of high school girls get to pack into trains to travel to regional test centers.

So . . . what do you do? Read that linkypoo to really experience how bad "the problem" is.

Japan is an interesting society to say the least.


We do have a thread on that. . . .

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Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
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Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
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Re: Japan

Postby Grammatron » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:04 pm

Doctor X wrote:Which brings us to practical problems. From Rocket News we have the lovely report of molesters using social media to organize groping during the two day "Center Test"--huge ass college admissions test anime and manga teens are always studying for--where tons of high school girls get to pack into trains to travel to regional test centers.

So . . . what do you do? Read that linkypoo to really experience how bad "the problem" is.


The answer to me is obvious. You make a show of force and make a huge public showing of "throwing the book" at the few people you catch.
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Re: Japan

Postby Doctor X » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:17 pm

Well . . . I would recommend this article from the aforementioned Wokketto Nūzu to give a victim's perspective.

Further searching gives an indication to the shame. It has also created a backlash with a few men wrongly accused.

It would certainly be "nice" that what happened is what you describe: people would work together to stop it and ruin the lives of those who do it such that it creates a deterrence. Unfortunately, there is a societal belief that one can treat young women like that. I do not mean to beat up Japan--much--but think of how molesters get away with it in any culture. Read about the "man-boy" culture in Afghanistan if you find your day has just been too pleasant.

I am trying to avoid said Wall of Text, but I fear some of it is the Colossal Over-Generalization of prudishness in "the West" versus Japan.

--J.D.
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