A Thought for the Day

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ed
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Re: A Thought for the Day

Post by ed » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:59 pm

TAUGHT BY JESUITS????!?!?!!?

OMG

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Re: A Thought for the Day

Post by Witness » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:39 am

xouper wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:27 am
Witness wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:41 am
Unerringly you went for the wrong point. :mrgreen:
That happens on occasion, especially when someone does not make it clear what their point is.

I am willing to learn from my mistakes if someone is willing to help me out rather that just ridicule poke fun at me.
OK, let's look it over:
Unsufferably sarcastic Witness wrote:xoup, it's the "Thought for the Day" thread. Some questions are more interesting than their answers.

Think it over. :wink:
1. xoup: right, it's addressed to you;
2. it's the "Thought for the Day" thread: as I see it (you're of course entitled to a completely different opinion) a place to drag in interesting/stimulating tidbits of information, quotes, memes, images, &c. But it clearly is not about Petrarch anymore – and that's where you "went for the wrong point";
3. Some questions are more interesting than their answers: it's about content, not (necessarily) comment;
4. Think it over. :wink: : just a kind of pun on "Thought", with a wink so you don't take it too seriously.

Let's put it to a practical test and see how my following post fares… :mrgreen:

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Re: A Thought for the Day

Post by Witness » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:40 am

Image

Nothing to do specifically with you, xouper! :wink:

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Re: A Thought for the Day

Post by shemp » Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:59 am

When xoup dies, we have to go to the funeral... just to be sure.
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Re: A Thought for the Day

Post by xouper » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:00 am

Witness wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:39 am
2. it's the "Thought for the Day" thread: as I see it (you're of course entitled to a completely different opinion) a place to drag in interesting/stimulating tidbits of information, quotes, memes, images, &c. But it clearly is not about Petrarch anymore – and that's where you "went for the wrong point";
3. Some questions are more interesting than their answers: it's about content, not (necessarily) comment;
Yes, I get all that (the parts in yellow), and I got that from the very beginning.

Since my original reply to your original post asked for clarification about what "thought" the content was trying to convey, then how can that be going for the wrong point? I was not asking about Petrarch himself, I was asking what his content meant, and I explained the reasons why it didn't make any logical sense.

viewtopic.php?p=925571#p925571

So how about answering my original question, what the fuck was that thought all about? Right from the beginning I've tried to discuss and understand the thought (the content), not the person. You posted it as if it had some intellectual value, so please explain it to me — and this is now the third time I've asked that — and please stop playing these pointless games focused on me personally. Is that too much to ask?

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Re: A Thought for the Day

Post by xouper » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:02 am

shemp wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:59 am
When xoup dies, we have to go to the funeral... just to be sure.
Image

Except my stereo goes to Doctor X, irregardless. :wink:

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Re: A Thought for the Day

Post by Witness » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:55 pm

xouper wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:00 am
Is that too much to ask?
Yes,
Perché la vita è breve. (Francesco Petrarca, Canzone 71, st. 1.)

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Re: A Thought for the Day

Post by xouper » Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:17 am

Witness wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:55 pm
xouper wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:00 am
Is that too much to ask?
Yes,
Perché la vita è breve. (Francesco Petrarca, Canzone 71, st. 1.)
Let me get this straight.

You don't want to explain the meaning of your "thought for the day" because life is too short, but you will waste a shitload of time arguing with me about my request for an explanation.

WTF? :shock: :dunno:

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Re: A Thought for the Day

Post by Grammatron » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:05 pm

xouper wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:17 am
Witness wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:55 pm
xouper wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:00 am
Is that too much to ask?
Yes,
Perché la vita è breve. (Francesco Petrarca, Canzone 71, st. 1.)
Let me get this straight.

You don't want to explain the meaning of your "thought for the day" because life is too short, but you will waste a shitload of time arguing with me about my request for an explanation.

WTF? :shock: :dunno:
Rather like a good joke it can't really be explained so you either get it or you do not. Certain quotes are like platitudes and tend to lose all meaning when you try to break them down and understand them. You are trying to find and understand something that is not there.

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Re: A Thought for the Day

Post by xouper » Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:10 am

Grammatron wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:05 pm
xouper wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:17 am
Witness wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:55 pm
xouper wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:00 am
Is that too much to ask?
Yes,
Perché la vita è breve. (Francesco Petrarca, Canzone 71, st. 1.)
Let me get this straight.

You don't want to explain the meaning of your "thought for the day" because life is too short, but you will waste a shitload of time arguing with me about my request for an explanation.

WTF? :shock: :dunno:
Rather like a good joke it can't really be explained so you either get it or you do not. Certain quotes are like platitudes and tend to lose all meaning when you try to break them down and understand them. You are trying to find and understand something that is not there.
Thanks. That makes more sense than the platitude I was trying to understand.

Here's my "thought for the day": Sometimes a bunch of words can be strung together to sound like they might be expressing something profound and useful, but in reality are mere word salad. There's a lot of that going on in the modern academic world.

Seems to me Petrarca's platitude has no intrinsic meaning at all. It does not convey any useful insight into anything. You think about it and think about it, and eventually conclude there's nothing there. Those who claim to "get it" cannot even explain what it is they "got", ergo I claim they got nothing. Word salad.

Consider another quote from Petrarca:
Francesco Petrarca wrote:I cannot have a sufficiency of books. Indeed, I have more than I should... Books give utter delight: they talk with us... and are bound to us by lively and witty intimacy, and do not just insinuate themselves alone on their readers but present the names of others, and each one creates a longing for another.
Now look again at the quote posted previously in this thread:
Francesco Petrarca wrote:And what good has all your reading done you? Out of all the things you have read, how much has really stayed in your soul, what roots have grown there that will, in a good time, bring forth fruit? Examine your heart carefully. If you compare the whole of what you know with what you don’t know, you will find that your knowledge is like a small stream dried up in the summer heat compared to the ocean of your ignorance. And even granted that you do know a lot, what difference does it make?
See my point?

How about this one, also from Petrarca:
Francesco Petrarca wrote:I ate in the morning what I would digest in the evening; I swallowed as a boy what I would ruminate upon as an older man. I have thoroughly absorbed these writings, implanting them not only in my memory but in my marrow.
After reading and comparing all three, what non-trivial or useful insight do you think you "got" from the middle one that asks, "what good has all your reading done you?"

And then there's this biographical observation:
http://brbl-archive.library.yale.edu/exhibitions/petrarch/about.html wrote:
. . . Not only was Petrarch a poet, philosopher, and moralist, he was above all a scholar of exceptional intellectual curiosity and competence. Beginning as a child, he dedicated his life passionately to the pursuit of knowledge, especially from the classical world of ancient Greece and Rome. As an adult he brought the past to life, collecting the words of ancient thinkers and writers and passing them on to later generations. He collected books, discovered long-lost writings, and edited texts, especially those of his favorite authors Cicero, Livy, and Virgil. By the end of his life, he owned one of the largest private libraries in the world, which he gave to the city of Venice in exchange for a house there.

Petrarch’s library was intended to become the first public library in the western world. Instead his books were dispersed, and many now reside in libraries and collections throughout the world, including the United States. Together with manuscripts and books by and about Petrarch, they form a formidable collection of Petrarch’s powerful words.
Now read again Petrarca's platitude:
Francesco Petrarca wrote:And what good has all your reading done you? Out of all the things you have read, how much has really stayed in your soul, what roots have grown there that will, in a good time, bring forth fruit? Examine your heart carefully. If you compare the whole of what you know with what you don’t know, you will find that your knowledge is like a small stream dried up in the summer heat compared to the ocean of your ignorance. And even granted that you do know a lot, what difference does it make?
How do you reconcile that with his love of books and his lifelong pursuit of knowledge?

What point is he trying to make here?

I don't buy it that his point cannot be explained.

I'm willing to be shown wrong in any of the above, if someone is willing to explain it to me. I'm willing to have a sincere conversation about it. But so far all I got is shit for even asking. Ergo, I conclude no one here actually "got" anything from Petrarca's platitude about reading and knowledge.

So off to the interwebs I go . . .

And look what I found.

First of all, his name is commonly anglicized as Petrarch so that complicated my search.

Secondly, the words in Petrarca's platitude are not to be interpreted as coming from Petrarca himself, but rather they are spoken by a character in his book, My Secret Book. Apparently those words are put in the mouth of St Augustine as a challenge to Petrarca. St Augustine is asking Petrarca, "What good has all your reading done you?" St Augustine is asking Petrarca, "And even granted that you do know a lot, what difference does it make?"

Here's a review of My Secret Book that includes some much needed context, including a comment about St Augustine's questions:
http://www.complete-review.com/reviews/itatti/petrarca.htm wrote:
. . . one wishes Petrarch had more often complained: "Come off it, please! I never heard anything more absurd."
At least I am not the only one who thinks those questions were absurd.

Apparently I need to read Petrarca's book to find out how he addressed St Augustine's questions.

And apparently no one here has read it either, and thus it is now my opinion that no one here has any clue what Petrarca meant by all that, although perhaps some here still think they "get it". Maybe they do, but I will never know since they seem unable to explain what it is they "got".

And with that, I have now exceeded my quota of thinking for the day.

As always, Your Mileage May Vary™. :wink:

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Re: A Thought for the Day

Post by asthmatic camel » Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:59 am

Image
Shit happens. The older you get, the more often shit happens. So you have to try not to give a shit even when you do. Because, if you give too many shits, you've created your own shit creek and there's no way out other than swimming through the shit. Oh, and fuck.

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Re: A Thought for the Day

Post by xouper » Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:57 am

Image

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Re: A Thought for the Day

Post by Doctor X » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:58 am

Níl aon tinteán mar do thinteán féin.
"There is no fireplace like your own fireplace."

Níl aon tóin tinn mar do thóin tinn féin.
"There is no sore ass like your own sore ass."

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Re: A Thought for the Day

Post by Anaxagoras » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:29 am

As Xouper's investigations show, sometimes it does help a lot to understand the context of a quote to understand the full intention of the author.

https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretum_(book)
Secretum (De secreto conflictu curarum mearum, translated as The Secret or My Secret Book) is a trilogy of dialogues in Latin written by Petrarch sometime from 1347 to 1353, in which he examines his faith with the help of Saint Augustine, and "in the presence of The Lady Truth". Secretum was not circulated until some time after Petrarch's death, and was probably meant to be a means of self-examination more than a work to be published and read by others.

The dialogue opens with Augustine chastising Petrarch for ignoring his own mortality and his fate in the afterlife by not devoting himself fully to God. Petrarch concedes that this lack of piety is the source of his unhappiness, but he insists that he cannot overcome it. The dialogue then turns to the question of Petrarch's seeming lack of free will, and Augustine explains that it is his love for temporal things (specifically Laura), and his pursuit of fame through poetry that "bind his will in adamantine chains".
Basically Augustine here is a kind of foil, telling Petrarch to stop wasting time with earthly things like reading, and start thinking about getting right with God. After all, the true Christian believes that being "saved" for the afterlife is much more important than any conceivable earthly pursuit.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

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Re: A Thought for the Day

Post by Doctor X » Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:22 pm

I never could understand the fascination with pet rocks.

The sixties, I guess.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

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Re: A Thought for the Day

Post by Witness » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:24 pm

Now that little quote proved very productive…

Thanks to xouper! :figamagee:
Anaxagoras wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:29 am
Basically Augustine here is a kind of foil
The same literary device is used by Galileo in his:

Image

a dialogue between Salviatus and Simplicius. From the names alone you know who will get squashed in the argument. :mrgreen:

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Re: A Thought for the Day

Post by xouper » Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:16 am

Witness wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:24 pm
Now that little quote proved very productive…

Thanks to xouper! :figamagee:
:knock:

:HoppingMad:     :HoppingMad2:




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Re: A Thought for the Day

Post by Doctor X » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:54 am

But on occasion, kindness can turn into cruelty.

--Hōjō Satoko
--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

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Re: A Thought for the Day

Post by asthmatic camel » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:37 am

Image
Shit happens. The older you get, the more often shit happens. So you have to try not to give a shit even when you do. Because, if you give too many shits, you've created your own shit creek and there's no way out other than swimming through the shit. Oh, and fuck.

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Re: A Thought for the Day

Post by Pyrrho » Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:32 am

Image
The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.