The UK thread

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Re: The UK thread

Postby Witness » Sun May 06, 2018 4:37 am

Reuters wrote:Ethiopia says British museum must permanently return its artifacts

ADDIS ABABA (Reuters) - Britain must permanently return all artifacts from Ethiopia held by the Victoria and Albert Museum and Addis Ababa will not accept them on loan, an Ethiopian government official said.

The call comes after the museum, one of London’s most popular tourist attractions, put Ethiopian treasures plundered by British forces in 1868 on display.

“Well, it would be exciting if the items held at the V&A could be part of a long-term loan with a cultural institution in Ethiopia,” museum director Tristram Hunt said.

“These items have never been on a long-term loan in Ethiopia, but as we look to the future I think what we’re interested in are partnerships around conservation, interpretation, heritage management, and these need to be supported by government assistance so that institutions like the V&A can support sister institutions in Ethiopia.”

Among the items on display are sacred manuscripts and gold taken from the Battle of Maqdala 150 years ago, when British troops ransacked the fortress of Emperor Tewodros II.

The offer of a loan did not go far enough for Ethiopia.

“What we have asked (for) was the restitution of our heritage, our Maqdala heritage, looted from Maqdala 150 years ago. We presented our request in 2007 and we are waiting for it,” government minister Hirut Woldemariam said.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethiopia-history-artefacts/ethiopia-says-british-museum-must-permanently-return-its-artifacts-idUSKBN1HU2M2


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Chalice made by Walda Giyorgis in Gondar, Ethiopia, 1735-40.

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Crown, probably made in Gondar, Ethiopia, around 1740.

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Re: The UK thread

Postby ed » Sun May 06, 2018 1:13 pm

I've had some interesting chats with museum types on this issue. As I recall, the Calyx Krater at the Met was recently returned to Italy. Also a helmet from the Kienbush collection in Philly was returned to the Royal Armouries (?). Then then there are the Elgin Marbles.

A thoughtful book on the topic is here
https://www.amazon.com/Who-Owns-Antiqui ... ns+history

Personally, I take a pragmatic view. If the underlying principle is that individuals and cultures should have physical possession of objects that originated within their borders, in their families, within their culture you have, effectively, chaos. Every museum in the new world would be denuded. And objects would revert to areas that do not have the means motivation or ability to preserve these things.

Objects like the Elgin Marbles belong to all of us, not the fucking pederast Greek fuckers.

While I feel the pain of the damn Ethiopians I really don't give a shit. The stuff is safe and is being enjoyed by more of humanity in a year than inhabits the entirety of their shithole country.

I suggest a hundred year window for reparations. The russkies looted stuff from Germany that has still not been returned (I believe) and art and other objects that were stolen from jews in the Nazi sphere of influence are still in limbo. But at some point we must say "enough".

eta that crown looks like something a kardashian would wear . brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.....
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Re: The UK thread

Postby gnome » Sun May 06, 2018 2:43 pm

I don't think there's a one-size-fits all solution of any kind.

In some cases I would offer to transfer official ownership to the native country, but secure an agreement for it to remain on display where it is.
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Re: The UK thread

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sun May 06, 2018 2:49 pm

gnome wrote:I don't think there's a one-size-fits all solution of any kind.

In some cases I would offer to transfer official ownership to the native country, but secure an agreement for it to remain on display where it is.


Might makes right, moderated by noblesse oblige?
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Re: The UK thread

Postby gnome » Sun May 06, 2018 2:54 pm

More like that in some cases repatriation has a cost to humanity itself as ed points out. If both parties can agree on something else, isn't that a better outcome?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The UK thread

Postby ed » Sun May 06, 2018 3:20 pm

In some cases I would offer to transfer official ownership to the native country, but secure an agreement for it to remain on display where it is.


Thats called "keeping it".

How about a tag on the display showing the area of origin ... wait, they do that already.

Sorry, places like Greece simply can not guarentee acesss to objects. They, amazingly, publish a "strike schedule" for Greece. In any event, the Elgin Marbles were not made by relatives of present day greeks, they can all kiss my ass .... err :oops:
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Re: The UK thread

Postby Rob Lister » Sun May 06, 2018 3:36 pm

How about they can have it back after they pay past restoration, towing and storage fees. :)

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Re: The UK thread

Postby gnome » Sun May 06, 2018 3:57 pm

ed wrote:
In some cases I would offer to transfer official ownership to the native country, but secure an agreement for it to remain on display where it is.


Thats called "keeping it".


Maybe close. It also acknowledges the owning country's ability to make a repatriation claim, but voluntarily withholding it. It may not make much difference to the visitors of the museum, but I would think it makes a difference to the native country whether it is voluntary or against their wishes.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The UK thread

Postby ed » Sun May 06, 2018 4:00 pm

There is also a claim that looting removes things from serious study. That objects that go into collections are lost in some way.

In fact I think that this is a steaming load of bullshit. To begin, 99% of the stuff looted (n.b. I take issue with the term) is crap that would never make it to a museum storeroom let alone "scientific study". The few pieces that are worthwhile tend to get identified and conserved ... the people selling this stuff are not stupid and the people buying aren't either. So there is some appreciation for things that would remain buried. There is no program anywhere to dig up everything. In fact, professionals routinely fill in excavations when there is nothing of interest. How much better to support amateurs in this regard?

The Brits have a system that is amazingly effective. If you dig and find something you report it to a designated expert. If it is a good piece, the government will buy it for the real market value. If not, it is yours. There are rules for Treasure Trove but lets not complicate things. There is a charming series on the BBC called Dectectorists that treats this subject.

The Draconian laws in Greece and Italy simply serve to drive prices up, criminalize behaviors that have been part of those societies forever and assure the disappearance of worthwhile objects. All the while keeping objects "safe" to be ignored by professionals.
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Re: The UK thread

Postby ed » Sun May 06, 2018 4:01 pm

gnome wrote:
ed wrote:
In some cases I would offer to transfer official ownership to the native country, but secure an agreement for it to remain on display where it is.


Thats called "keeping it".


Maybe close. It also acknowledges the owning country's ability to make a repatriation claim, but voluntarily withholding it. It may not make much difference to the visitors of the museum, but I would think it makes a difference to the native country whether it is voluntary or against their wishes.


Difference how? Their feelings aren't hurt?
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Re: The UK thread

Postby Giz » Sun May 06, 2018 4:06 pm

Huh, those dorians are just being ionic. If they were serious, they’d leave Greece to the Mycenaens. (Heck, the Parthenon was built on the site of the old Mycenaean city - SAD)

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Re: The UK thread

Postby ed » Sun May 06, 2018 4:10 pm

BTW, I have bought deaccessioned objects from museums, the Palace of Fine Arts in San Fran most recently (tho' ages ago). I bought a couple of swords and a few pieces of armor. I talked to the curator chick about it at the time. Thing was that they knew that they would never have a true study collection nor would they have anything resembling a comprehensive display so they got rid of most of the pieces, kept a couple and directed interested folks to the Met or the Severance collection or the Chicago exhibit. Sensible. They got focus and $. Thing is that these pieces (if they're not fake) are european, italian probably. Probably bought by wealthy collectors back in the day and likely looted by the wops from the germans (or the germans from the wops).

Who gets what? And should the museum be last man standing and loose the money?

Thing is not everything is the mona lisa. It is all stolen (for military stuff that is almost guaranteed).
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Re: The UK thread

Postby Witness » Tue May 08, 2018 5:11 pm

RIP the State…
The Evening Standard wrote:Britain's first private police force to go nationwide after success in London's wealthiest neighbourhoods

The force, called My Local Bobby, makes citizens arrests and can gather evidence to launch private prosecutions.

Clients who pay up to £200-a-month are given a direct line to a local officer, who they can also track on an iPad, and enjoy a meet-and-greet service from Tube stations or cars.

The scheme, which was set up by former Met officers David McKelvey and Tony Nash, is currently being trialled in Belgravia, Mayfair and Kensington.

In two years, the agency has reportedly achieved more than 400 convictions for fraud, intellectual property theft and other offences.

They now intend to move forces into other cities, as well as rural areas, amid a rising demand for the officers.

Mr McKelvey told the Sunday Express: “You don’t see policemen walk around the streets any more. If you call 101 it’s a 30-minute wait and it is not a police officer who answers.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/britains-first-private-police-force-to-go-nationwide-after-success-in-londons-wealthiest-a3832321.html

The slums will have to police themselves. That'll make them aware of their responsibilities. :P

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Re: The UK thread

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Tue May 08, 2018 5:14 pm

The regular police are more concerned with suppressing crimethink rather than protecting property.
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Re: The UK thread

Postby Giz » Tue May 08, 2018 5:25 pm

Witness wrote:RIP the State…
The Evening Standard wrote:Britain's first private police force to go nationwide after success in London's wealthiest neighbourhoods

The force, called My Local Bobby, makes citizens arrests and can gather evidence to launch private prosecutions.

Clients who pay up to £200-a-month are given a direct line to a local officer, who they can also track on an iPad, and enjoy a meet-and-greet service from Tube stations or cars.

The scheme, which was set up by former Met officers David McKelvey and Tony Nash, is currently being trialled in Belgravia, Mayfair and Kensington.

In two years, the agency has reportedly achieved more than 400 convictions for fraud, intellectual property theft and other offences.

They now intend to move forces into other cities, as well as rural areas, amid a rising demand for the officers.

Mr McKelvey told the Sunday Express: “You don’t see policemen walk around the streets any more. If you call 101 it’s a 30-minute wait and it is not a police officer who answers.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/britains-first-private-police-force-to-go-nationwide-after-success-in-londons-wealthiest-a3832321.html

The slums will have to police themselves. That'll make them aware of their responsibilities. :P


In the UK, that would be called "policing by consent".

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Re: The UK thread

Postby Witness » Tue May 08, 2018 10:51 pm

Giz wrote:In the UK, that would be called "policing by consent".

I looked that up, interesting: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/policing-by-consent/definition-of-policing-by-consent. Sounds somehow very utopian, today. :(

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Re: The UK thread

Postby Anaxagoras » Mon May 14, 2018 11:36 pm

U.K. schools getting rid of analog clocks because teens "cannot tell time"

I wonder if analog clocks will be an antique curiosity in the future.

If kids can't tell time using an analog clock, isn't some sort of remedial education in order? Make it a subject in 1st grade. Educate the students, don't make accommodations for their ignorance.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: The UK thread

Postby Witness » Tue May 15, 2018 1:54 am

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Re: The UK thread

Postby gnome » Tue May 15, 2018 10:36 am

ed wrote:
gnome wrote:
ed wrote:
In some cases I would offer to transfer official ownership to the native country, but secure an agreement for it to remain on display where it is.


Thats called "keeping it".


Maybe close. It also acknowledges the owning country's ability to make a repatriation claim, but voluntarily withholding it. It may not make much difference to the visitors of the museum, but I would think it makes a difference to the native country whether it is voluntary or against their wishes.


Difference how? Their feelings aren't hurt?


In diplomatic relations sometimes that can make all the difference. Symbolic meanings, saving face, all the things that smooth over decisions on emotive topics made for mostly practicality.
Last edited by gnome on Tue May 15, 2018 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The UK thread

Postby gnome » Tue May 15, 2018 10:38 am

Anaxagoras wrote:U.K. schools getting rid of analog clocks because teens "cannot tell time"

I wonder if analog clocks will be an antique curiosity in the future.

If kids can't tell time using an analog clock, isn't some sort of remedial education in order? Make it a subject in 1st grade. Educate the students, don't make accommodations for their ignorance.


Not exactly.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/schoo ... og-clocks/
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2


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