Loss of friends

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ed
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Loss of friends

Postby ed » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:46 am

I had a somewhat troubling conversation with an old friend yesterday, guy and I go back 40 years ( :shock: ) to Y&R days. Anyway, he was a pretty senior guy at a big branding shop and is now out on his own. Sophisticated New Yorker.

Well, he went on (I mean repeatedly) about how "this wasn't the country he was born in" and that the crudity of the presidency is horrid and how he wakes up dreading what Trump is going to do and on and on and on.

There was no point in trying to have a rational discussion. He said "kicking out millions of people is just not acceptable". Basically every liberal talking point.

Let me repeat, this is not a snowflake kid, this is a person who, like me, lived thru the riots of the 70's and Nixon and gas embargos. He is, or was, a republican who grew up in a republican home. But there was nothing I could, or would say ... except that if the economy keeps up and the democrats step on their own dick and run some far far left loon, Trump will be reelected.

That didn't cheer him up, it wasn't meant to, actually. :twisted:

Had another old pal, this guy from HS, who said that I am probably happy with the cheet-o in chief and how we are doomed.

This all got me thinking. Our gay pals from downtown literally melted down after the election. One went to work at the Dem convention. Haven't seen them or talked to them in a year. The first two guys I think are gone. I failed the virtue signaling by not cutting off a finger when they mentioned Trump.

Then there is the cuz and her partner. They showed up a few months ago and the partner announced (without an intro, just said it) "I hope Trump fucking dies". I mean, WTF is that about? I didn't point out that the Defense of Marriage Act was signed by St. Bill. Why bother?

Thing is that I have lived in harmony with members of the liberal tribe for going on to half a century. Until now. They just see evil with nothing redeeming. They have no sense of nuance. If you want to have an immigration policy, that is a code for racism. Trump hates and wants to kill everyone. There is nothing good or even defensible on the other side.

I think that I am really apprehending it for the first time and am beginning to see that the gulf is wider than I had thought. And that complete capitulation is necessary to narrow it.

Gotta think on this a bit more but it is not very happy making.
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Re: Loss of friends

Postby gnome » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:55 am

For what it's worth, I mostly seek out people that hold more moderate opinions and can mix with people of many different political flavors, so long as nobody gets a bug up their ass. They're out there. For me if the conversation does turn to politics the trick is to avoid discussing public figures. Talk of issues gets very interesting and thoughtful. Mention Obama, Trump, Clinton, any major figure... good way to shut the whole thing down or blow it up beyond reason.

If I meet someone that supports Trump (note: support trump <> preferring Trump to Clinton), I might wonder how their head works. But I wouldn't feel hostile to them unless they held a specific position I objected to, and often not even then. It would really have to be an obnoxious position.
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Re: Loss of friends

Postby Mentat » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:03 am

There is nothing good or even defensible on the other side.


Pretty much.
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Re: Loss of friends

Postby Anaxagoras » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:56 am

ed wrote: They just see evil with nothing redeeming. They have no sense of nuance.


Isn't that how you see Hillary?

I think corplinx mentioned that Trump is kind of like a heel in professional wrestling. He's a bit cartoonish and he plays it up for the people in his base who like that. He's not like past Republican presidents who at least tried to convince liberals that they were good people acting in good faith. Trump likes to provoke people.

There's a lot of things to hate about the guy for people who take this stuff very seriously. He treats it more like a game, which makes people who take it seriously even angrier. At least Bush and Reagan at least appeared to take the responsibilities of the office more seriously.

Personally, while I don't care for him, I try not to get emotional about it and try to look at things from an objective and skeptical perspective as much as possible. I can see that parts of the news media have sort of gone off the rails which is probably due to the emotional reaction they have to him.
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Re: Loss of friends

Postby shuize » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:59 am

At a party before the election I joked that I thought being forced to choose between the two terrible candidates was like being forced to pick a disease. Then some guy I barely knew and wasn't even talking to came up and started swearing at me for "Supporting Trump."

To my surprise, a number of my left-wing "friends" did not immediately tell the guy to "fuck off."

I'd known some of these people for over 10 years, but I have not forgotten who did and who did not have my back.

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Re: Loss of friends

Postby Grammatron » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:27 am

I just don't understand this animosity toward Trump. I am fortunate that my friends see things moderately or disagree with Trump on policy rather than through some blood vendetta. Otherwise I just forgo Politics all together.
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Re: Loss of friends

Postby Nyarlathotep » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:33 am

On the other hand, I have lost friends for not blindly kowtowing to Trump. So it goes both ways
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Re: Loss of friends

Postby Nyarlathotep » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:36 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
ed wrote: They just see evil with nothing redeeming. They have no sense of nuance.


Isn't that how you see Hillary?


And by extension, anyone who supported her in any way?
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Re: Loss of friends

Postby Grammatron » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:43 am

Nyarlathotep wrote:On the other hand, I have lost friends for not blindly kowtowing to Trump. So it goes both ways


You're right. But I happen to live in a place where people are insanely anti-Trump. If I've lived in area that was insanely pro-Trump, I might have a different view no doubt about it.
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Re: Loss of friends

Postby Giz » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:56 am

It's such an unhinged lack of balanced judgement. It's one thing to think that Trump is deplorable, but it's another to think that he represents some kind of existential threat to US democracy. And yet another, to think that removing him early would be worth doing long term damage to our country's political traditions*.


* note: not talking about constitutional impeachment but about things like getting him remotely diagnosed as mentally unfit, etc.

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Re: Loss of friends

Postby Doctor X » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:57 am

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Re: Loss of friends

Postby Fid » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:01 am

Yeah, "It's the end of the world as we know it" (that maybe copyrighted) but truth be told we will carry on and jerk off as need be. We'll live.
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Re: Loss of friends

Postby RCC: Act II » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:21 pm

Grammatron wrote:I just don't understand this animosity toward Trump. I am fortunate that my friends see things moderately or disagree with Trump on policy rather than through some blood vendetta. Otherwise I just forgo Politics all together.


I don't hate him. I just happen to think he is objectively incompetent, and a racist in an alarmingly familiar way.

Because he's president I'm finding out who the casual ignorant racists are and who the malignant hateful racists are because they aren't even trying to hide it anymore, and I am cutting the latter out of my life. Others are a bit more aggressive about doing this because they have less patience with racism.

I can understand those that are more aggressive about this, but in my circumstances it seems unwise. A level of racism is built into the culture I grew up in and live in, and that racism is hard for us to see, much less address, so blanket condemning anyone here for it crosses a line into condemning someone for their origins. Where it turns is whether that person is at least willing to have the conversation about the racism baked into our specific subculture.

The ones that aren't I'm not dealing with anymore. Just done with them.

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Re: Loss of friends

Postby RCC: Act II » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:26 pm

I mean, assuming it comes up for some reason. I'm never going to fire the first shot in that particular war, but if someone I know starts shouting the n word at the TV because someone dropped a pass, or something like that, there is going to be a conversation at some point about whether this is White Nationalism or just him acting like an asshole.

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Re: Loss of friends

Postby ed » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:33 pm

Unless he's black, then it's ok presumably.

Could you tell me, in clear and precise terms, why Trump is a racist?

I hear this regularly and when I ask, I generally get sputters and no specifics. You are a rational person, you have an excellent command of the english language. I am asking not to engage in debate but rather to understand. From my side, I have not seen anything that would led me to characterize Trump as a racist. A boor, sexist, unintellectual, arrogant, nasty, crude ... these all apply, racist not so much.

Thank you.

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Re: Loss of friends

Postby gnome » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:56 pm

My take (though I'm interested in RCC's as well)-- I don't see him exactly as racist. I don't think race is a big issue for him.

I see him as prejudiced--I think he makes snap judgments about people and groups based on very little information, and expressions of racism are collateral damage born of that willful ignorance.

Most particularly, and this was evident early in his campaign, he has an image of what he thinks a typical illegal immigrant is like, and that image is lifted directly from racial stereotypes. Either he believes it, which makes it a racist expression, or he is trying to appeal to people that believe it, which means he's willing to use racism for power.
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Re: Loss of friends

Postby ed » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:10 pm

I think you are pretty much right. I think he probably epitomizes the casual racism that you see in big cities which is worse than what I have experience here in the south, btw. There is a smugness to northern racism but that is a topic for another thread. I think his stereotypes are probably drawn from his experience.

FYI here is a demographic breakdown of illegals
https://immigration.procon.org/view.res ... eID=000845
Mexican, relatively young, mostly employed in unskilled labor, ~30% unemployed.
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Re: Loss of friends

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:22 pm

gnome wrote: ... which means he's willing to use racism for power.


This one.

When it comes to race, and particularly when it comes to gay rights, as a businessman and publicity hound he has always been "good" on these things from LIBBERUL point of view.
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Re: Loss of friends

Postby Grammatron » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:30 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:I don't hate him. I just happen to think he is objectively incompetent, and a racist in an alarmingly familiar way.

Those sound like solid reasons to hate a president, but I am struggling to understand how Trump is racist. To me he seems no different than any other politicians except he doesn't sound as polished nor as eloquent compared to how people expect their presidents to sound.
Because he's president I'm finding out who the casual ignorant racists are and who the malignant hateful racists are because they aren't even trying to hide it anymore, and I am cutting the latter out of my life. Others are a bit more aggressive about doing this because they have less patience with racism.

Having racist supporters doesn't make someone racist.
I can understand those that are more aggressive about this, but in my circumstances it seems unwise. A level of racism is built into the culture I grew up in and live in, and that racism is hard for us to see, much less address, so blanket condemning anyone here for it crosses a line into condemning someone for their origins. Where it turns is whether that person is at least willing to have the conversation about the racism baked into our specific subculture.

The ones that aren't I'm not dealing with anymore. Just done with them.

All of what you are describing is alien to me. I have never experienced what you are describing in Los Angeles.
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Re: Loss of friends

Postby Anaxagoras » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:52 pm

ed wrote:Could you tell me, in clear and precise terms, why Trump is a racist?


https://slate.com/news-and-politics/201 ... mp-is.html

Within these groups, Trump blames the innocent for failing to control the guilty. He has held Barack Obama responsible for black crime, explicitly because Obama is black. “President Obama has absolutely no control (or respect) over the African American community” Trump wrote in 2014 during the riots in Ferguson, Missouri. A year later, Trump jeered, “Our great African American President hasn’t exactly had a positive impact on the thugs who are so happily and openly destroying Baltimore!” In 2016, after the Orlando massacre, Trump falsely charged that “the Muslim community does not report” its extremists. He concluded that Muslims should be punished collectively for such incidents: “The Muslims are the ones that have to report them. And if they don’t report them, then there have to be consequences to them.” Trump refuses to apply this policy of collective responsibility to whites. After Charlottesville, he argued just the opposite: that “very fine people” shouldn’t be faulted for rallying with Nazis.

Trump has persistently cast aspersions on particular people based on race, ethnicity, or religion. He suggested to evangelicals that they couldn’t trust Ted Cruz because Cruz’s family came from Cuba. He suggested to Protestants that they couldn’t trust Ben Carson because Carson is a Seventh-day Adventist. He retweeted an allegation that Jeb Bush “has to like the Mexican illegals because of his wife,” who is Mexican American. At rallies and in TV interviews, Trump charged that Gonzalo Curiel, the Indiana-born federal judge presiding over the Trump University fraud case, was incorrigibly biased against him because “we’re building a wall. He’s a Mexican.”


Is Barack Obama responsible for black crime because Obama is black? Does he have some kind of magical power to control "the black community" because he is black?

I thought the Birther stuff was very suspicious too, but whatever. Hey, even Paul Ryan, a Republican called what he said "textbook racism".
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