Loss of friends

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Grammatron
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Re: Loss of friends

Post by Grammatron » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:56 pm

RCC: Act II wrote: I doubt it. This is just more both sides bullshit.
That's my point.
“Our great African American President hasn’t exactly had a positive impact on the thugs who are so happily and openly destroying Baltimore!”

“The Muslims are the ones that have to report them. And if they don’t report them, then there have to be consequences to them.”
He supports collective punishment and/or responsibility along racial lines. That is nearly as pure a example of racism as there can be. Take that with the allegations that a federal judge can't be impartial because he is of Mexican ancestry and Trump wants to take adverse action against Mexico and holy shit.
I am not reading it the way you are reading it. The first quote of Trump's to me is clear commentary on how Obama, even though he was the first African American president, was not able to have any positive impact on the murder problem in Baltimore or Chicago. Couple that with total control from the Democratic party in those area and the comment of trying something else to solve the gun problem is not a crazy or racist idea. At least not to me.

Second quote is Trump telling groups that if they have extreme elements within them and those elements are not deal with internally well they will be deal with externally.

Finally, the Judge Gonzalo P. Curiel. Yes I agree Trump's comments for offensive and wrong. But they were just comments. What actions did Trump take as President to undermine Judge Curiel? As far as I can tell none.
The "shithole" episode, whatever the wording, "shithouse" or whatever is another example of the pattern of his holding an individual responsible for the actions of a group. The criticism itself raises issues, but the rest of it is elitism based on origin. It just isn't acceptable.
The comments were so much simpler than that IMO. Let's get better educated immigrants.

My overall point remains, Trump may sound ignorant and bigoted, but his actions do not back that up.

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Re: Loss of friends

Post by Nyarlathotep » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:58 pm

Oh, and something that amuses me greatly.

I say that people are shitbags who are looking for pretenses for murdering the other side, regardless of who the other side happens to be, and every asks for evidence.

But its an article of faith that Dems only when elections through voter fraud. Only Republicans win elections hoinestly. No evidence necessary, it's as obvious as the nose on our faces.

Very telling, that.
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Re: Loss of friends

Post by Nyarlathotep » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:00 pm

There are apparently like three actual Democrats, and every other vote they get is a dead person or an illegal alien. That seems to be the claim being made. But no evidence for that is required, nope, not at all
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Re: Loss of friends

Post by Giz » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:12 pm

Nyarlathotep wrote:Oh, and something that amuses me greatly.

I say that people are shitbags who are looking for pretenses for murdering the other side, regardless of who the other side happens to be, and every asks for evidence.

But its an article of faith that Dems only when elections through voter fraud. Only Republicans win elections hoinestly. No evidence necessary, it's as obvious as the nose on our faces.

Very telling, that.
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Re: Loss of friends

Post by Nyarlathotep » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:16 pm

That’s not the claim being made here though
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Re: Loss of friends

Post by RCC: Act II » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:50 pm

Grammatron wrote: I am not reading it the way you are reading it. The first quote of Trump's to me is clear commentary on how Obama, even though he was the first African American president, was not able to have any positive impact on the murder problem in Baltimore or Chicago.
Why is Obama's race significant?



Second quote is Trump telling groups that if they have extreme elements within them and those elements are not deal with internally well they will be deal with externally.
"Group?" It is a religion. It is a religion whose members are virtually all not only against the extremism, but who make up a majority of its worldwide victims.

Collective punishment/responsibility by identifiable people is attributed to the whole of a minority group in both cases. This is racism. This is the logic behind pogroms and other ethnic cleansing.

Finally, the Judge Gonzalo P. Curiel. Yes I agree Trump's comments for offensive and wrong. But they were just comments. What actions did Trump take as President to undermine Judge Curiel? As far as I can tell none.
I'll ignore the massive goalpost shift for a second.

His comments were actions. He's the goddamn President. He questioned the integrity and legitimacy of a judge based on race.


My overall point remains, Trump may sound ignorant and bigoted, but his actions do not back that up.
His comments are the actions. He sounds ignorant and bigoted because he is ignorant and bigoted. Being ignorant and bigoted is commonly what is meant by someone being racist.

We are how we act. He acts in a way constant with someone who is a racist.

We all do to some extent. The difference is whether we are capable of acknowledging it and addressing it or we just bend over backwards to deny it. The denials around Trump are absurd. The man is an ignorant bigot. There might be a conversation about the nature of this, but it is a pointless conversation to have when confessing to acting in a racist or bigoted manner is seen as worse than just going on acting in such a manner.

There are some strident assholes on the left. So what. To not admit to a problem and try to fix it because you are terrified of being criticized by people you don't find all that credible is the height of cowardice.

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Re: Loss of friends

Post by Grammatron » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:11 pm

RCC: Act II wrote: Why is Obama's race significant?
It's significant because the issue of violence in Baltimore and Chicago are problems along racial lines. Here's a NYT article on this. I don't think they are racist.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... oblem.html

I was hoping that Obama would be able to bridge the divide in a moment that is similar to the "Only Nixon could have gone to China". Alas...
"Group?" It is a religion. It is a religion whose members are virtually all not only against the extremism, but who make up a majority of its worldwide victims.
Great, sounds like they and Trump are on the same page.
Collective punishment/responsibility by identifiable people is attributed to the whole of a minority group in both cases. This is racism. This is the logic behind pogroms and other ethnic cleansing.
It's not collective punishment on the group, it's collective punishment on a corruption within the system. I am hoping for the same attitude against Catholic church for their inaction on pedophiles within their organization. Or would you also consider Federal action against Catholic on that to be ethnic cleansing?
I'll ignore the massive goalpost shift for a second.

His comments were actions. He's the goddamn President. He questioned the integrity and legitimacy of a judge based on race.
Actually he was a goddamn private citizen when he made those comments and being Mexican is not a race anymore than being Canadian.
His comments are the actions. He sounds ignorant and bigoted because he is ignorant and bigoted. Being ignorant and bigoted is commonly what is meant by someone being racist.
Comments are not actions though. For example, Trump saying "I want to fuck a donkey" is protected free speech. Trump fucking a donkey is bestiality and likely animal cruelty. A clear observable delineation between comment and action.
We are how we act. He acts in a way constant with someone who is a racist.
We are indeed how we act, but words are not actions. Trump's comments as portrayed by the media show him as someone who may be racist. But Trump's actions do not reflect that. I still do not understand how a white nationalist, racist president would have a Jewish son-in-law and minorities in the cabinet positions.
We all do to some extent. The difference is whether we are capable of acknowledging it and addressing it or we just bend over backwards to deny it. The denials around Trump are absurd. The man is an ignorant bigot. There might be a conversation about the nature of this, but it is a pointless conversation to have when confessing to acting in a racist or bigoted manner is seen as worse than just going on acting in such a manner.

There are some strident assholes on the left. So what. To not admit to a problem and try to fix it because you are terrified of being criticized by people you don't find all that credible is the height of cowardice.
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Re: Loss of friends

Post by Giz » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:17 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
Grammatron wrote: Finally, the Judge Gonzalo P. Curiel. Yes I agree Trump's comments for offensive and wrong. But they were just comments. What actions did Trump take as President to undermine Judge Curiel? As far as I can tell none.
I'll ignore the massive goalpost shift for a second.

His comments were actions. He's the goddamn President. He questioned the integrity and legitimacy of a judge based on race.
Wasn't the curial thing related to him being a member of "la Raza lawyers association " rather than just being hispanic? (Yeah, not the "la raza" but still perhaps not what someone arguing for immigration controls wants to see on the bench)

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Re: Loss of friends

Post by gnome » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:14 pm

Grammatron wrote: It's not collective punishment on the group, it's collective punishment on a corruption within the system. I am hoping for the same attitude against Catholic church for their inaction on pedophiles within their organization. Or would you also consider Federal action against Catholic on that to be ethnic cleansing?
Just piping up to note that a religion doesn't have a "system". A CHURCH does, as in the Catholic Church -- it's an identifiable organization with members and leaders.

A "Muslim" is just someone that says they are a Muslim. What that means to them is not defined by the actions of other Muslims.

Maybe the equivalent is demanding that all Christians have a special duty to deal with the behavior of the Catholic Church.
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Re: Loss of friends

Post by Grammatron » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:57 pm

gnome wrote:
Grammatron wrote: It's not collective punishment on the group, it's collective punishment on a corruption within the system. I am hoping for the same attitude against Catholic church for their inaction on pedophiles within their organization. Or would you also consider Federal action against Catholic on that to be ethnic cleansing?
Just piping up to note that a religion doesn't have a "system". A CHURCH does, as in the Catholic Church -- it's an identifiable organization with members and leaders.

A "Muslim" is just someone that says they are a Muslim. What that means to them is not defined by the actions of other Muslims.

Maybe the equivalent is demanding that all Christians have a special duty to deal with the behavior of the Catholic Church.
I guess that would make Trump an ignorant asshole.

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Re: Loss of friends

Post by Doctor X » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:29 pm

RCC wrote:His comments are the actions. He sounds ignorant and bigoted because he is ignorant and bigoted. Being ignorant and bigoted is commonly what is meant by someone being racist.
Grammatron wrote:Comments are not actions though.

RCC wrote:We are how we act. He acts in a way constant with someone who is a racist.
I would have to see consistent actions that demonstrate racism rather than cherry-picked interpretations. Obama attended a racist church for 20-odd years. Is he a racist? If Trump . . . bah . . . bwa! . . . HA!HA!HA!HA! attended--no, wait, hold on . . . BWA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA! . . . attended a church . . . more specifically, if he attended services at Westborough or, better, Bob Jone's University then that would be something.

The sad truth is just as Republicans had to line up to suck the dicks of Bob Jones' preachers and the like, Obama had to attend that church: he was a wannabe black politician in Chicago.

So, yes, Obama's race does matter. That is another more complex issue in and of itself, of course. To give an example, Some Less-Than-Enlightened groused that "he was only elected because black!!!11!" I remain amazed at how they can vocalize exclamation points and numerals.

TOM BRADY WAS THROWING THE FOOTBALL WELL TODAY AND I NEED A CIGAREETT SUREENDER DOROTHY!!!1!

Where was I?

Oh yeah, yes, and for decade up to and sadly beyond now, such people voted against a politician simply because he "was black!!1!"

I recall Some Dipshit telling a story about a poker game on the night when a dove descended upon Obama was elected. Apparently, people kept coming up to a conservative black!!--only two "!!"--player offering "congratulations" to which he responded "fuck you!"

My memory could be incorrect.

For that I blame spa . . . uh . . . what was I typing about?

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Re: Loss of friends

Post by Mentat » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:21 am

The Muslims are the ones that have to report them. And if they don’t report them, then there have to be consequences to them.”
Grammatron wrote:It's not collective punishment on the group,
How is that not threatening collective punishment? At this point it is just shoving fingers in your ears and screaming at the top of your lungs. The denial is insane.
It's "pea-can", man.

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Re: Loss of friends

Post by Grammatron » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:34 am

Mentat wrote:
The Muslims are the ones that have to report them. And if they don’t report them, then there have to be consequences to them.”
Grammatron wrote:It's not collective punishment on the group,
How is that not threatening collective punishment? At this point it is just shoving fingers in your ears and screaming at the top of your lungs. The denial is insane.
I literally explain it in the same sentence. If you do not agree with it, I welcome a conversation, but please don't pretend like I offered no explanation.

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Re: Loss of friends

Post by Mentat » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:38 am

Huh, I missed the part where Trump later said ". . . And by 'them' I don't mean muslims at large, but rather the muslim church".
It's "pea-can", man.

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Re: Loss of friends

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:38 am

Nyarlathotep wrote:There are apparently like three actual Democrats, and every other vote they get is a dead person or an illegal alien. That seems to be the claim being made. But no evidence for that is required, nope, not at all
An overstatement of the case I made, such as it was.

Is it really partisan paranoia to opine that Chicago politics (necessarily Democrat) are dirty?

And I certainly wouldn't argue with you if you said the same about Republicans in (for instance) Carson City, even though they do not have the same notoriety.
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Re: Loss of friends

Post by Grammatron » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:39 am

Mentat wrote:Huh, I missed the part where Trump later said ". . . And by 'them' I don't mean muslims at large, but rather the muslim church".
Trump actually provided context during the interview for it.

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Re: Loss of friends

Post by Nyarlathotep » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:47 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Is it really partisan paranoia to opine that Chicago politics (necessarily Democrat) are dirty?
It is when Chicago politics are used as s justification for claiming that Democrats only get elected via voter fraud nationwide
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Re: Loss of friends

Post by ed » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:51 am

Black murder and crime is caused by young black men who are likely bereft of strong male role models. He could have used the bully pulpit and attempted to be one. Did he?

The birther stuff was a parody of butthurt republicans grasping at straws. Not unlike the Cargo Cultist die hard Hillary supporters. Why that is racist is am imponderable. Then again, I am a post racial kinda guy.
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Re: Loss of friends

Post by ed » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:51 am

Nyarlathotep wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Is it really partisan paranoia to opine that Chicago politics (necessarily Democrat) are dirty?
It is when Chicago politics are used as s justification for claiming that Democrats only get elected via voter fraud nationwide
You have a reference for that claim?
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Re: Loss of friends

Post by Mentat » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:00 am

Grammatron wrote:
Mentat wrote:Huh, I missed the part where Trump later said ". . . And by 'them' I don't mean muslims at large, but rather the muslim church".
Trump actually provided context during the interview for it.
I watched that interview, so don't BS me.
It's "pea-can", man.

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