Classic boats

This is our lounge area. Feel free to come in and get acquainted!
User avatar
Witness
Posts: 17231
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:50 pm
Has thanked: 2121 times
Been thanked: 2893 times

Re: Classic boats

Post by Witness » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:15 am


User avatar
sparks
Posts: 14177
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:13 pm
Location: Friar McWallclocks Bar -- Where time stands still while you lean over!
Has thanked: 2007 times
Been thanked: 625 times

Re: Classic boats

Post by sparks » Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:37 am

Looks to me like the Classic was taking it all a bit easier than the Comfortina.
You can lead them to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

User avatar
xouper
Posts: 8967
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:52 am
Location: HockeyTown USA
Has thanked: 236 times
Been thanked: 144 times

Re: Classic boats

Post by xouper » Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:08 am

sparks wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:37 am
Looks to me like the Classic was taking it all a bit easier than the Comfortina.
Length of waterline is the relevant factor, not the material it’s made from.

User avatar
sparks
Posts: 14177
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:13 pm
Location: Friar McWallclocks Bar -- Where time stands still while you lean over!
Has thanked: 2007 times
Been thanked: 625 times

Re: Classic boats

Post by sparks » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:11 pm

Underbody shape perhaps? Plus it's a bit hard to tell in those photos as we see the windward side of the Comfortina and the leeward side of the Classic.
You can lead them to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

User avatar
xouper
Posts: 8967
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:52 am
Location: HockeyTown USA
Has thanked: 236 times
Been thanked: 144 times

Re: Classic boats

Post by xouper » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:12 pm

sparks wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:11 pm
Underbody shape perhaps? . . .
Yes, partly that, but length is the dominant factor in this case.

User avatar
Witness
Posts: 17231
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:50 pm
Has thanked: 2121 times
Been thanked: 2893 times

Re: Classic boats

Post by Witness » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:19 pm

Image

User avatar
sparks
Posts: 14177
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:13 pm
Location: Friar McWallclocks Bar -- Where time stands still while you lean over!
Has thanked: 2007 times
Been thanked: 625 times

Re: Classic boats

Post by sparks » Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:27 am

xouper wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:12 pm
sparks wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:11 pm
Underbody shape perhaps? . . .
Yes, partly that, but length is the dominant factor in this case.
And doesn't waterline length primarily affect hull speed? I bring up underbody shape as in keel. Looks like the Comfortina has a fin and the Classic has a full keel by the way each is handling. Generally speaking, getting the boat heeled over a bit usually makes the ride more comfortable. Yet the Comfortina looks like she's struggling.
You can lead them to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

User avatar
xouper
Posts: 8967
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:52 am
Location: HockeyTown USA
Has thanked: 236 times
Been thanked: 144 times

Re: Classic boats

Post by xouper » Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:26 am

sparks wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:27 am
xouper wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:12 pm
sparks wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:11 pm
Underbody shape perhaps? . . .
Yes, partly that, but length is the dominant factor in this case.
And doesn't waterline length primarily affect hull speed? I bring up underbody shape as in keel. Looks like the Comfortina has a fin and the Classic has a full keel by the way each is handling. Generally speaking, getting the boat heeled over a bit usually makes the ride more comfortable. Yet the Comfortina looks like she's struggling.
Correct, waterline directly affects theoretical maximum hull speed in a displacement hull. But it also affects other things, like ride comfort in rough water.

As a rule of thumb, if the length of the waterline (lwl) is more than 3 times the width (beam), the ride is better in rough water.

It seems to me (and I could be mistaken) the "struggling" you see in the Comfortina is largely the result of lower lwl/beam ratio as compared to the classic (based on my eyeball estimations).

Image

Is that more helpful?

User avatar
sparks
Posts: 14177
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:13 pm
Location: Friar McWallclocks Bar -- Where time stands still while you lean over!
Has thanked: 2007 times
Been thanked: 625 times

Re: Classic boats

Post by sparks » Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:28 am

Sure. That'd be the difference between a fin keel and a full keel...usually (but not always). Underbody shape, as I said before.
You can lead them to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

User avatar
xouper
Posts: 8967
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:52 am
Location: HockeyTown USA
Has thanked: 236 times
Been thanked: 144 times

Re: Classic boats

Post by xouper » Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:50 am

This conversation reminds me of old joke:

Image

User avatar
Witness
Posts: 17231
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:50 pm
Has thanked: 2121 times
Been thanked: 2893 times

Re: Classic boats

Post by Witness » Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:03 am


User avatar
sparks
Posts: 14177
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:13 pm
Location: Friar McWallclocks Bar -- Where time stands still while you lean over!
Has thanked: 2007 times
Been thanked: 625 times

Re: Classic boats

Post by sparks » Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:06 am

Oh, now that looks like fun. :shock:
You can lead them to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

User avatar
sparks
Posts: 14177
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:13 pm
Location: Friar McWallclocks Bar -- Where time stands still while you lean over!
Has thanked: 2007 times
Been thanked: 625 times

Re: Classic boats

Post by sparks » Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:06 am

Oh, now that looks like fun. :shock:
You can lead them to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

User avatar
Witness
Posts: 17231
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:50 pm
Has thanked: 2121 times
Been thanked: 2893 times

Re: Classic boats

Post by Witness » Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:29 am


User avatar
Witness
Posts: 17231
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:50 pm
Has thanked: 2121 times
Been thanked: 2893 times

Re: Classic boats

Post by Witness » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:49 am

Image

User avatar
Witness
Posts: 17231
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:50 pm
Has thanked: 2121 times
Been thanked: 2893 times

Re: Classic boats

Post by Witness » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:54 pm

Image

Hey, sparky! Your thread, you should contribute – I know zilch about boats, classic or otherwise, but I'm interested.

User avatar
sparks
Posts: 14177
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:13 pm
Location: Friar McWallclocks Bar -- Where time stands still while you lean over!
Has thanked: 2007 times
Been thanked: 625 times

Re: Classic boats

Post by sparks » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:13 pm

I'm too exhausted after discussion with Xoup about what makes a good sailboat. It really comes down to what you want: Go fast and work extra hard or go a bit slower without having to herd it down the course with a baseball bat. Two kinds of keels with variants: Full keel which runs the length of the boat (more or less) and is very stable, takes a lot for wind and waves to knock them off course or knock them over. Fin keel goes faster, but you'd best be on your toes or in the drink you'll eventually go. There is a variant of the fin keel called wing keel which gives you protection on your heaviest flow days (OK knock that off!!) which has some of the benefits of both types. You go a bit slower due to the drag, but the boat tends to stay upright a bit better than fin alone. It requires less draft than a fin (like a full keel) which can be a real advantage on bigger boats where you want to get into places that are shallow or have large tide swings. The wings provide a lift vector that is downward. Under power this sucks the whole boat down into the water a bit and that slows you down, but under sail where you're leaning over one way or the other, it keeps the boat from 'sliding' downwind like fin keels have a real tendency to do.

http://www.jordanyachts.com/1554

Linky has a much better explanation with pics of the various types of keels. My Catalina 18 had a wing keel. A nice compromise on a smaller boat. Easily handled in 20 knots of wind before reducing sail, didn't require as much water depth as a fin would have, and the 18 was more easily trailerable as a result of the shoal draft. Had that thing in lakes and the ocean. It was a hoot as a first boat. Thing is, 18 feet is rather small for a sailboat. You couldn't stand up in the cabin. And that gets old real quick.
Matt-Nautillus.JPG
That's the 18. The goofball in the picture is who I used to be back in 2002.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
You can lead them to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

User avatar
xouper
Posts: 8967
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:52 am
Location: HockeyTown USA
Has thanked: 236 times
Been thanked: 144 times

Re: Classic boats

Post by xouper » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:45 pm

sparks wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:13 pm
I'm too exhausted after discussion with Xoup about what makes a good sailboat. . . .
Sorry about that. In hindsight I could have been less of an asshat.

User avatar
sparks
Posts: 14177
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:13 pm
Location: Friar McWallclocks Bar -- Where time stands still while you lean over!
Has thanked: 2007 times
Been thanked: 625 times

Re: Classic boats

Post by sparks » Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:20 am

No worries Xoup. I just had to bail on that because I could foresee the two of us going round and round without ever actually agreeing on anything and I get too much of that at work with 'superiors' who don't understand shit about engineering, whereas you obviously understand sailboats. From you, this is tolerable for a period of time. From folks who know not of what they speak, I just have to smile and go away as quickly as possible.

My personal favorite is the cost of engineering (maintenance and repair) vs profitability. Time and again I find myself pointing out that a. things take time to correct when they've gone wrong and b. to do the job right (and I refuse to bailing-wire and duct tape anything) will cost money. 'This is your life support system' -I tell them. 'You really don't want to skimp on that'.

They see it as their sacred mission in life to ignore me. And I return the favor. :)
You can lead them to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

User avatar
Witness
Posts: 17231
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:50 pm
Has thanked: 2121 times
Been thanked: 2893 times

Re: Classic boats

Post by Witness » Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:26 am

I was more thinking about pictures than technicalities…