Chiropractic

Ever had it before? Well you got it again.
User avatar
viscousmemories
Posts: 677
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:22 am

Chiropractic

Postby viscousmemories » Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:11 am

I'm interested in it, but the only thing I know is that discussing it is a surefire way to get a thread to snowball into a flamefest and locked over at IIDB. However, I've never bothered to read any of those flamefests.

So...

What do you know or think about it? Is it real, effective, bunk...?

User avatar
RCC
Posts: 7015
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 5:28 pm
Location: Here for now.
Been thanked: 21 times

Re: Chiropractic

Postby RCC » Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:19 am

viscousmemories wrote:I'm interested in it, but the only thing I know is that discussing it is a surefire way to get a thread to snowball into a flamefest and locked over at IIDB. However, I've never bothered to read any of those flamefests.

So...

What do you know or think about it? Is it real, effective, bunk...?


Maybe it is real effective bunk. Viva el effect de placebo....

User avatar
Geni
Posts: 5883
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:02 am
Location: UK

Postby Geni » Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:27 am

It is effective in some narrow area and not for the reason it's inventor claimed. This seems to be true for a number of manimputalive thearapies.

User avatar
viscousmemories
Posts: 677
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:22 am

Postby viscousmemories » Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:33 am

One argument I've heard is that it's self-perpetuating. IOW, you don't need chiropractic until you've had chiropractic. Then you need to keep going back for adjustments. I have no idea if this is true.

I personally am afraid of chiropractic because I have this aversion (I suspect a natural one) to letting someone mess with my spine. I envision them cracking my back or whatever they do and accidentally severing my spinal cord. :shock:

On the other hand I have occassional back problems that I'd rather not have, such as completely debilitating lower back pain for a few days every couple of years. Everything that might help looks appealing then.

User avatar
Skeeve
Posts: 9339
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:35 am
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 60 times

Re: Chiropractic

Postby Skeeve » Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:41 am

viscousmemories wrote:I'm interested in it, but the only thing I know is that discussing it is a surefire way to get a thread to snowball into a flamefest and locked over at IIDB. However, I've never bothered to read any of those flamefests.

So...

What do you know or think about it? Is it real, effective, bunk...?


The basic theory is that something flows through nerves, and all health problems result when nerves get pinched, and the something doesn't get through.

Bunk. Mega-double-plus-ungood bunkum.

Having somebody manipulate your spine can do things like cause dissected arteries to your brain, or throw off clots toward your brain.

It can also move muscles and convince them to be less tense, sometimes, too, I gather. I know several good massage therapists, and they can do it without risking a stroke, too. Long drive up there, though.
Then Skank Of America could start in...

User avatar
viscousmemories
Posts: 677
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:22 am

Re: Chiropractic

Postby viscousmemories » Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:50 am

Skeeve wrote:The basic theory is that something flows through nerves, and all health problems result when nerves get pinched, and the something doesn't get through.

Bunk. Mega-double-plus-ungood bunkum.

Really? I thought it was just about spine alignment.

Having somebody manipulate your spine can do things like cause dissected arteries to your brain, or throw off clots toward your brain.

Did I mention I have an anxiety disorder? I very genuinely do not need to think about such possibilities. :shock:

It can also move muscles and convince them to be less tense, sometimes, too, I gather. I know several good massage therapists, and they can do it without risking a stroke, too. Long drive up there, though.

Wait. You mean chiropractic can soothe your muscles like a massage, but at the risk of a stroke? Is that what you meant about blood clots thrown off toward the brain? (It suddenly occurs to me I apparently don't know exactly what causes a stroke).

Loon
Posts: 1593
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 7:25 am
Location: Tokyo

Re: Chiropractic

Postby Loon » Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:06 am

viscousmemories wrote:Really? I thought it was just about spine alignment.


I always thought so too. Apparently there's quite a bit more. I just sort of assumed that chiro was where you went for back problems, just like the dentist is where you go for teeth problems.

Wait. You mean chiropractic can soothe your muscles like a massage, but at the risk of a stroke? Is that what you meant about blood clots thrown off toward the brain? (It suddenly occurs to me I apparently don't know exactly what causes a stroke).


I believe a stroke either a ruptured blood vessel or a blocked blood vessel in the brain. Or so says the american stroke association and the national stroke association.
I guess there he chose to err on the side of more votes. -Grammatron

User avatar
RedShift
Posts: 1057
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:55 pm
Location: Desolation Row

Re: Chiropractic

Postby RedShift » Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:08 am

viscousmemories wrote:
Skeeve wrote:The basic theory is that something flows through nerves, and all health problems result when nerves get pinched, and the something doesn't get through.

Bunk. Mega-double-plus-ungood bunkum.

Really? I thought it was just about spine alignment.


Most problems arise from "subluxations" in the spine and can be relieved with realignment. SkepDic has a good rundown. Here's an FAQ from the chiro POV http://www.chiropractors.asn.au/aboutch ... chiro.html

My feeling is that there may be some benefit for back pain but the claims chiros make about the "science" behind it and what they can do are very iffy.

Also, their stuff about adjusting the spines of newborn babies is just damn creepy.
Random chance seems to have operated in our favour.

If I wanted something your thumb touched, I’d eat the inside of your ear.

User avatar
Eos of the Eons
Posts: 1530
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 6:06 am
Location: Hundred some Km North of Calgary
Been thanked: 1 time

Postby Eos of the Eons » Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:31 am

http://www.drchot.com/

http://www.chirowatch.com/


http://www.chirobase.org/


Chiropractic is the brainchild of Daniel D. Palmer, a late-nineteenth century dabbler in metaphysical approaches to health care. Palmer had practiced phrenology and magnetic healing, and had some osteopathic training. He reported that a spiritualist medium inspired him in his search for "the single cause of all disease." He puzzled over the fact that pathogenic germs were found in both healthy and sick people and searched for an explanation. (Today, we know that the immune system makes the difference.)

He claimed that in 1895 he restored the hearing of janitor Harvey Lillard and concluded that the spine was the key to health and disease.


The spine has nothing to do with hearing.
Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. -Eos
"the immaterial world doesn' t matter, cause it ain't matter" -Jeff Corey
I like my men already wounded and full of biting sarcasm. -SamanthaMc
"You are free to be an idiot. I choose not to be." -Skeptica

User avatar
Kilted_Canuck
Posts: 384
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 6:23 pm
Location: Saskatchewan

Postby Kilted_Canuck » Fri Jul 02, 2004 8:06 am

A friend of mine goes to a chiropractor regulary to help her back problems (from a car accident a few years ago, but her insurance covers it). Some chiropractors claim they can cure anything and everything, while it a appears others only claim they can help one's back. I'm still skeptical, but she loves it.

User avatar
rwald
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 11:43 am
Location: Caltech

Postby rwald » Fri Jul 02, 2004 8:52 am

I think everyone here (who's sane) agrees that chiropractic can at most relieve back (and possibly neck) pain. The real question is, can it do even that? To my understanding, chiropractic is effectively the same as cracking one's knuckles, only on a larger scale. Therefore, one would expect that it makes the affected joints feel better in the short term, but makes more pain likely in the long term (especially if it induces arthritis). Would others agree with this assesment, or do people's opinions about chiropractic's ability to relieve back pain differ?
For the record, I don't actually know anything. Not even this.

Ever wondered what being a Caltech undergrad was like?
caltizzle.caltech.edu

User avatar
MRC_Hans
Posts: 519
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:11 pm
Location: Denmark
Been thanked: 11 times

Postby MRC_Hans » Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:07 am

Here (in Denmark) Chiropractors are accepted by mainstream medicine and you can be sent to one by your GP with public health insurance support. But only for various dislocation problems. Chiropractors often have X-ray equipment and will take X-rays before attempting manipulations.

I think the reference to cracking your knuckles is a good analogy. Depending on how your joints are, this might do you good; I have hypermobile joints and simply need to crack my joints, especially knuckles to keep the mworking. Unless you overdo it, there are no ill effects rom this.

So I suppose chiropractic is basically a woowoo thing that turned out to have certain uses, like acupuncture and zone therapy, even though the underlying theory has been debunked.

This is not surprising, really; very few alt. systems are invented entirely out of thin air. They build on some objective observations, but the conclusions taken from those observations have turend out to be wrong. The observations, however, are still valid.

Hans
Fly pretty, anyone can fly safe...

Loon
Posts: 1593
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 7:25 am
Location: Tokyo

Postby Loon » Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:13 am

MRC_Hans wrote:This is not surprising, really; very few alt. systems are invented entirely out of thin air. They build on some objective observations, but the conclusions taken from those observations have turend out to be wrong. The observations, however, are still valid.


I think this is a valid point, and perhaps one that needs to be brought to the fore more often.

Also, what is "zone therapy"?
I guess there he chose to err on the side of more votes. -Grammatron

User avatar
Dagon (JREF's Psi Baba)
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 2:52 pm
Location: Rue The Day

Postby Dagon (JREF's Psi Baba) » Fri Jul 02, 2004 6:36 pm

Purely anecdotal, but here goes: My opinion of chiropractic is that it is potentially effective in treating certain back and joint pain, if done by a skilled and scrupulous practicioner. Several years ago I developed a mysterious pain in my back, just under the left shoulder blade. It wasn't an intense pain, but felt more like walking around with someone poking a finger in my back all day. I visited a chiropractor on a referral by a friend. One treatment removed this pain. She did not recommend subsquent visits or offer other treatments or suggest that I had other ailments. Nor did her office have any literature or products related to woo-woo ideas. In fact the only product for sale in her office was a type of neck-support pillow.

One other thing she did do, which amazed me, was when she checked my arms all the way down to my hands and said, "Did you know that your thumb was out?" In fact, I had been living with a pain in my left hand, centered on the thumb, which would flare whenever I opened my hand very wide, say when picking up a wide cup or something. I had learned to live with the pain for so long, I forgot about it and failed to mention it. She found it on her own and treated it. Neither of these pains has recurred, and it's been several years.

Later I was given a gift certificate by the friend who referred me to this chiropractor. I held onto it for a while in case I really needed it. Eventually I just went and used it to get a sort of check-up. This would have been the perfect opportunity for her to "find things wrong with me" and recommend further visits and procedures, but she never did, even though her fees had increased prior to my using the gift certificate which she honored with no additional payment. She just said, "You're fine, you have no problems." Imagine a chiropractor saying that! I guess there are a few good ones out there, and I was lucky to find one.

I'll state for the record, however, that were I to visit a chiropractor who began suggesting crackpot stuff like chelating or began talking about the immune system, I'd turn around and walk out at once. And I would never submit to having my neck manipulated.
Can it core a apple?

User avatar
MRC_Hans
Posts: 519
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:11 pm
Location: Denmark
Been thanked: 11 times

Postby MRC_Hans » Fri Jul 02, 2004 7:23 pm

Loon wrote:
MRC_Hans wrote:This is not surprising, really; very few alt. systems are invented entirely out of thin air. They build on some objective observations, but the conclusions taken from those observations have turend out to be wrong. The observations, however, are still valid.


I think this is a valid point, and perhaps one that needs to be brought to the fore more often.

Also, what is "zone therapy"?
Thx.

Zone therapy is basically massaging the feet. I'm sure that is very nice and relaxing ;).

Hans
Fly pretty, anyone can fly safe...

User avatar
JOKER
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:57 pm
Location: Vegas Baby, VEGAS!

Postby JOKER » Fri Jul 02, 2004 8:58 pm

rwald wrote:I think everyone here (who's sane) agrees that chiropractic can at most relieve back (and possibly neck) pain. The real question is, can it do even that? To my understanding, chiropractic is effectively the same as cracking one's knuckles, only on a larger scale. Therefore, one would expect that it makes the affected joints feel better in the short term, but makes more pain likely in the long term (especially if it induces arthritis). Would others agree with this assesment, or do people's opinions about chiropractic's ability to relieve back pain differ?

The few times I have gone to a Chiropractor was for back pain. My problem is a "twisted disk". By twisting too much or overworking, it occurs once every few years and almost stops my daily routine. Very painful to get up, sit down, normal movements, ANYTHING! It may be my woowoo, but I look for a Chiropractor that uses an Actuator. The best I can describe it is a syringe with a rubber mallet at the end instead of a needle. Lying face down on the table, with an arm up or down here and your head turned left or right there, he pinpoints the problem disk and "adjusts" it with the Actuator. It basically feels like flicking your finger on your arm, no pain. Afterwards, the area is sore, but the pain is gone and things feel fine. Very passive procedure. I would never allow the torso twisting, trunk cracking that everyone thinks every Chiropractor does. Seems like that would be a much riskier and painful procedure.
Always on the Battlefield

Guest

Postby Guest » Fri Jul 02, 2004 11:19 pm

I'll state for the record, however, that were I to visit a chiropractor who began suggesting crackpot stuff like chelating or began talking about the immune system, I'd turn around and walk out at once. And I would never submit to having my neck manipulated.


Yep, there's a whole street full of 'em in the place I used to live. Every single person had a different idea on what misalignment caused what what pain or dysfunction. Not a single one I went to as a first-time patient (I wanted to see for myself what and how chiro operated. I was sorely disappointed at what I saw) agreed on a diagnosis or a prognosis. The only thing they agreed on was the "innate healing" bit. And the "everyone in the world has a misaligned spine and we help things." One of the Chiros couldn't even tell me the basic signs of a heart attack.

And having my neck cracked was bad. First of all, I had said very specifically "don't touch my neck." Okay, so we can all agree this pretty much means: "my neck: no touchie!" What does he do? He grabs my neck and cracks it. I see dark spots, get dizzy, and feel pain. When I mention that, does this good man say maybe I should go to a hospital in case he, oh, you know, injured me? No, no, he says "oh that's normal" and proceeds to keep pounding me on the back and hips. When I get up, he asks "you feel better, right?" I reply, "no, I hurt. I didn't hurt so much before, but now it's worse." So the chiro says "sometimes it's like that." Others did things like tap little hammers and had vibrating massagers and told me one leg was too long (of course, one chiro said my left leg was short, the other one said my right leg was). One said by looking at the bottom of my feet he could see how my spine was sitting. Or how long my legs were.

Having met and talked to quite a few chiros, I can only say I far more advocate physical therapy, massage therapy, hot tubs, buffered aspirin, or even an MD Osteopath. Heck, my back hurt until I got better shoes, and then the pain went away. Now only my head hurts from all the people who think chiro is the greatest thing since the Bible.

User avatar
suezoled
Posts: 175
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 8:55 pm
Location: Upstate NY

Postby suezoled » Wed Jul 07, 2004 12:27 am

You know what I love? When people try to get into a chiro's office because "it's an emergency" but then people like me can say "no, we can't rush your case. We only rush emergencies." Then the caller says "This is an emergency!" so then I get to say "If it's a true emergency, you should go to a hospital or an urgent care center. A chiropractor is not equipped to handle a true emergency," so the caller gets all pissy and says "But my back is killing me" and I essentially say, in very nice words, "tough sh*t." Sometimes even the chiro gets on the phone, trying to explain it's an emergency, and I explain in slow words and short sentences what constitutes a medical emergency, and what does not. Ahhh... I like doing that.
"Nothing goes together like zombies and root beer!" -Me

voidx
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 9:01 pm
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canuckland

Postby voidx » Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:03 pm

Having met and talked to quite a few chiros, I can only say I far more advocate physical therapy, massage therapy, hot tubs, buffered aspirin, or even an MD Osteopath. Heck, my back hurt until I got better shoes, and then the pain went away. Now only my head hurts from all the people who think chiro is the greatest thing since the Bible.

It was also sort of my understanding that most of the real world benefits of chiropractic could be achieved by the above mentioned therapies. Proper physio or licensed theropudic massage. It seems as though it has some effectiveness as it pertains to joint and disc pains. I personally would be nervous to have any spinal, but moreso neck manipulation done. I would try all of the above mentioned therapies first.

I think the biggest thing people need to remember is that despite what you believe about it. If you are continually going back to treat the same sources of pain, then the treatment is not helping to eliminate the source of pain, but rather just relieves the pain itself. Its worth the potential saving of expenses to try some different legitimate therapies in order to find the source of the pain. The problem is though that many people have an opinion that physicians are unhelpful or reluctant to suggest in depth remedies and procedures, so they go for the quick fix instant relief, while citing frustration at dealing with their physician. How true this is in most cases, well who knows, but many people seem to have that opinion.
In the famous words of Dougall Maguire, "Whose that Ted?"

User avatar
Cloverlief
Posts: 4982
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:59 pm
Location: Here, there or somewhere
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 29 times

Postby Cloverlief » Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:45 pm

When I was a child, my step-father swore by his chiro. Went every week like clock-work, and whenever he had a problem with his back (my step-father worked in the Oakland Produce Market unloading produce from trucks), he would go to the chiro, and until he was in his 50's, he rarely missed a day of work. Of course, to be fair the man took so many prescription drugs that he had obtained illegally, I am sure he didn't feel much anyway.

When I was 18, I had a child, who was born with Down Syndrome. When my son was almost a year old, I went to work for JC Penney. One of my co-workers was putting himself through chiropractic school by working nights as JC Penney. He was in his last year. He often discussed his education and one evening when the store was dead, we were discussing my son's disability, and he told me that my child's genetic problem was caused by a poor flow of energies through his spine and could be corrected with a few manipulations. I am not stupid and medicine has always fascinated me, so I was used to reading up on medical journals and I spent a lot of time in hospitals because my son and my mother both had fragile health and so I chatted with alot of doctors, learned to read medical charts, picked up any medical books laying about. I also had a good basic understanding of genetics and how it worked. For crying outloud, I was working towards a pre-med degree at the time. After sitting there for a few moments with my mouth hanging open, I had to ask how a spinal manipulation would cure my son's genetic defect. And my co-worker gave me a bunch of hooey about flow of energies and such, and I would notice a remarkable difference in my son if I just allowed him to be adjusted. I told him flat out that he was a quack and to stick to back massages.

In talking to my co-worker over the months we worked together, I found that he didn't learn much about how the human body worked or real medicine and this is a man who wanted to manipulate a very vital part of your anatomy. To me it is rather like going to a grocery store butcher and asking him to perform open heart surgery on you or a loved one.

In the years since, I have looked into chiropractic medicine a bit, and have been thrown into looking deeply at chiropractory due to my job in industrial insurance. I have read thousands of reports from chiros, I have dealt with dozens of chiropractors and I have come up with a conclusion - they are quacks. Many just copy and paste their reports without changing anything but the date, those who don't tend to throw out nice little, practically unreadable two-liners such as "continued subluxation of the spine at L3-L4. Follow-up in two days." It is appalling. I have had patients follow with a chiro for months and never see any improvement. The better chiros will eventually refer thier patients to a physiatrist when they have achieved no postive results, but many don't. Many keep that money machine rolling, and it is frustrating and irritating. I have uniformily seen better results when a patient goes to a physiatrist and sees a physical therapy. With chiropractors, patients in general end up in months of go no where 'therapy' to only end up at going to a physiatrist.

If you want a good massage, by all means go to a chiro. If you have problems with your back, go to a physiatrist who is trained in medicine and in how to deal with medical problems in a non-surgical fashion.
Chani


Return to “Medicine, Health, & Nutrition”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CCBot [Bot] and 0 guests