Chess

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Rob Lister
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Re: Chess

Post by Rob Lister » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:44 am

A pretty good write-up on 538.com
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ca ... -overtime/
“I wasn’t in a mood to find the punch,” Carlsen said by way of explanation after the game.
Wasn't in the mood?
“I should be really happy with a draw,” Caruana said. “My position had no chances to win.”
Engines don't concur but whatever.
Caruana said he was surprised by the draw offer. So was everyone else.

Let’s leave a deeper discussion of whether Carlsen’s shocking gesture is good for chess for later (it’s absolutely not) and take a look at how we got here.
Image


They’ll play a mini-match of four rapid games, in which each player gets 25 minutes plus 10 bonus seconds after each move. Points will be awarded as they were during regulation: 1 point for a win, half a point each for a draw.

If the score is still tied after those four games, they’ll play a mini-match of two blitz games, in which each player gets five minutes plus three bonus seconds after each move. If that’s tied, they’ll play another and another and so on, for up to five mini-matches, or 10 total blitz games.

If all of those two-game blitz matches are tied, they’ll play a single game of Armageddon. In this format, white gets five minutes, black gets four minutes, and a draw counts as a win for black. Lots are drawn (no pun intended) to determine who gets which color.
Lots are drawn. Stop. You're killing me!

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Re: Chess

Post by Rob Lister » Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:27 pm

https://www.chess.com/computer-chess-championship

patience is needed. It is rewarded. Picks up where Carlson left off.

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Re: Chess

Post by Rob Lister » Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:54 am

Carlson wins three fast games in a row
https://www.youtube.com/user/AGADMATOR/ ... &flow=grid
He is crowned again.

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Re: Chess

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:08 am

Quite a decisive finish after 12 draws in a row.

Maybe next time they should give less time for the "classical" portion. Maybe 80 minutes instead of 100 to start? And 20% less for the incremental time?

Just spitballing. Unless they like having lots of draws, or they think this was just a fluke.
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Re: Chess

Post by Rob Lister » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:21 pm

Now, having wasted tons of my precious time watching 12 very dull draws and 3 quick but still dull wins, I have a new and more betterestlyer source


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Re: Chess

Post by Rob Lister » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:01 am

3-year-old prodigy.



TLDW; He lost. He was playing the 2nd ranked GM Anatoly Karpov, after all. Then he started crying and begging for his mommy. Anatoly felt horrible.

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Re: Chess

Post by Anaxagoras » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:05 am

Ha! What a baby!



More seriously though, I worry about a kid that young being labeled as a "prodigy". It might not end well. There's a bit of a history with chess prodigies ending up mentally ill. Not saying that's what causes them to become mentally ill. That was probably going to happen any way. Bobby Fischer was the most famous example, but there have been others. Peter Winston was another.

And here's a story I found about little Mischa:

https://www.theringer.com/sports/2017/1 ... by-fischer
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Re: Chess

Post by Doctor X » Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:14 am

Image

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Re: Chess

Post by Rob Lister » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:20 pm

This is new. Alphazero vs Stockfish.

Out-fucking-rageous.



While Alpha was kicking stockfish's ass, it also wins protein folding competition
https://deepmind.com/blog/alphafold/

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Re: Chess

Post by Rob Lister » Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:18 pm

It strikes me that Alpfazero is just plain smarter than us, in every respect. At chess or any other game, it can't be denied. Are we looking at the next evolutionary jump?

It's hard to say no.

Say no.

I double-dog dare ya.

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Re: Chess

Post by Anaxagoras » Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:30 am

Rob Lister wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:18 pm
It strikes me that Alpfazero is just plain smarter than us, in every respect. At chess or any other game, it can't be denied. Are we looking at the next evolutionary jump?

It's hard to say no.

Say no.

I double-dog dare ya.
I'm not sure that it knows how to think for itself. Which is probably a good thing. We have to tell it what questions to answer. It's good at finding answers, once given a defined goal, but perhaps not at asking questions. :notsure:
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: Chess

Post by Anaxagoras » Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:41 am

Art is perhaps another field where it cannot surpass us.

Could it write a better symphony that Mozart's best or Beethoven? Perhaps it could, but I haven't seen it yet. I'm not sure they would know how to make it do that. With chess, it's easier to define the parameters and the goal.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: Chess

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:46 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:41 am
Could it write a better symphony that Mozart's best or Beethoven?
Can you? :P
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Re: Chess

Post by Anaxagoras » Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:01 am

No, but I assume that they are one of "us" so it's not about what the average human can do, but what the smartest among us can do.
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Re: Chess

Post by Witness » Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:08 am

Could certainly compose excellent dodecaphonic music, as it has (* cough *) "rules".

There is a hilarious vid on YT (but the blather is in French) where a pianist plays that kind of stuff, sometimes shifting one of his hands (and not the other) a semitone up or down, and the audience has to guess if he's playing the original composition or the butchered version.

You hear simply no difference, random remains random.

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Re: Chess

Post by shemp » Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:59 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:30 am
Rob Lister wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:18 pm
It strikes me that Alpfazero is just plain smarter than us, in every respect. At chess or any other game, it can't be denied. Are we looking at the next evolutionary jump?

It's hard to say no.

Say no.

I double-dog dare ya.
I'm not sure that it knows how to think for itself. Which is probably a good thing. We have to tell it what questions to answer. It's good at finding answers, once given a defined goal, but perhaps not at asking questions. :notsure:
Once it starts arguing with humans over the playing venue, the cameras and the prize fund, then we'll know it's sentient.
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Is what you got
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Re: Chess

Post by Anaxagoras » Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:09 am

Maybe they just haven't made the "rules" specific enough. Maybe it doesn't know how to evaluate its own work and find ways to improve it. Maybe it just needs more practice. In learning to play chess, it plays games over and over and over until it gets good. In the beginning it is very bad.
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Re: Chess

Post by Anaxagoras » Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:32 am



Jerry also has a new video of Alpha Zero vs Stockfish.
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Re: Chess

Post by Anaxagoras » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:47 pm

Rob Lister wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:18 pm
It strikes me that Alpfazero is just plain smarter than us, in every respect. At chess or any other game, it can't be denied. Are we looking at the next evolutionary jump?

It's hard to say no.

Say no.

I double-dog dare ya.
Here's a thought. This seems like something that an AI could do in principle, and it doesn't even need to have free will or be able to think "like a human" necessarily to do it:

Can it do a decent translation from one language to another? As good as a good human translator. There are of course plenty of terrible translators out there, but I would like to know when AlphaZero can translate say a novel from Japanese to English or vice versa. It would take a lot of work, but it seems like the kind of thing that an AI like AlphaZero could do, if it had the right kind of data to learn from. Can it teach itself to do it? I sort of doubt it, but maybe a clever person could figure that out. Last time I checked, Google Translate still kinda sucked for Japanese to English. I check every once in a while. I haven't tried other languages. Maybe someone can try German to English or French to English or Russian to English and see how well it does.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: Chess

Post by xouper » Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:06 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:47 pm
Here's a thought. This seems like something that an AI could do in principle, and it doesn't even need to have free will or be able to think "like a human" necessarily to do it:

Can it do a decent translation from one language to another? As good as a good human translator. There are of course plenty of terrible translators out there, but I would like to know when AlphaZero can translate say a novel from Japanese to English or vice versa. It would take a lot of work, but it seems like the kind of thing that an AI like AlphaZero could do, if it had the right kind of data to learn from. Can it teach itself to do it? I sort of doubt it, but maybe a clever person could figure that out. Last time I checked, Google Translate still kinda sucked for Japanese to English. I check every once in a while. I haven't tried other languages. Maybe someone can try German to English or French to English or Russian to English and see how well it does.
That's a great thought.

I don't know enough about AlphaZero to comment about its abilities, but I can point out that in general, there is a bigly and fundamental difference between AI learning to play chess versus translating languages. And that is the feedback to know how well you did. With chess, the AI can play against itself (or anything else) and evaluate the results without any human intervention. It is in essence self correcting with enough experience. It cannot do that with translating languages since there is no similar feedback mechanism without human intervention. Or to put it another way, with chess, it can create its own knowledge how best to play the game. It cannot do that with translating languages, since it needs humans to tell it how well it did.

On a related note, I have a hypothesis about why AI does not (currently) seem to do well in classifying music genres. It depends on examples of human classifications to learn from. My conjecture is that the AI classifications are probably very good, but that the human classifications are faulty, and that might explain why AI doesn't seem to do well. For example, the AI is given a largish database of music which is pre-labeled by genre according to humans. The AI then tries to figure out the rules of classification from that database. My hypothesis is that humans are not very good at that, and thus the AI is hamstrung before it even gets started.

Getting back to the chess example, the AI can create its own database of winning and losing moves. With translating languages, it cannot create its own database of good and bad translations. At least not with the current state of the art, as I understand it.

Or to point out one more obvious difference, evaluating the results of a chess game is largely objective, compared to language translation which has a large subjective component.

I could be wrong. But it's an interesting question.