Is the Bible really the Word of God?

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Re: Is the Bible really the Word of God?

Postby izittrue » Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:25 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:Anyway, back in catechism class, they told us that the Bible was "the word of man inspired by God."

So all bets were off on that score.


Roman Catholic?

Yep. Getting better tho'
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Re: Is the Bible really the Word of God?

Postby corplinx » Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:05 pm

Jesus replaced all that mess with the Golden Rule. (in their own mythos)

Christians who use OT one liners about gayness are basically being very un-Christian.

Basically, American Protestantism had become full of self-taught huckters who undid centuries of progress in one swoop and reverted to pre-Calvin thinking. Work supercediing Wellhausen's work on the Document Hypothesis had come sufficiently along that we understood the HB authors more than ever.

Ass clowns like this guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleason_Archer

They came together and signed this steaming revisionism (in the name of defending the faith against revisionism) in 1978.
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/chicago.htm

They basically decided to reject all we'd learned from archaeology, history, and scholarship and have wave it away with "faith".

It is a bit racist/tribalist in declaration. It declares that somehow the good English white folk knew better than everyone else.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_c ... _Testament


Anyway, what the fuck did Jesus know anyway? How dare he cross out the all the old laws in one swoop and replace them all with all with 2 rules (btw, the 10 commandments he basically waved off are what people get so upset about being removed from courts). The Old Testament says something about gay being bad, so fuck Jesus.

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Re: Is the Bible really the Word of God?

Postby Doctor X » Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:47 am

Having just crushed a Quack on Another Forum [Boo. Hiss.--Ed.]. . . .

corplinx wrote:Jesus replaced all that mess with the Golden Rule. (in their own mythos)

Christians who use OT one liners about gayness are basically being very un-Christian.


True, but the one-liners say nothing about "gayness," and the relationship between David and Jonathan raises some interesting eyebrows. Be that as it may, Fundamentalists rarely study the biblical texts responsibly. They are like Fred Leucter measuring with great detail where he chipped off pieces of wall in Auschwitz.

Work supercediing Wellhausen's work on the Document Hypothesis had come sufficiently along that we understood the HB authors more than ever.


Well . . . Wellhausen was a "Good Ol' Fashioned Jew-Hater" and promoted the whole nonsense of Judaism moving from an earthy ritual and sacrifice based religion to a sterile religion dominated by legalism. Nevertheless, the work of his and later scholars and especially the work of NT scholars, drove the declaration of the "Fundamentals" back in the 'teens which included biblical inerancy. The situation has not change for Fundamentalist Christians. If anything, they have become more insular.

t is a bit racist/tribalist in declaration. It declares that somehow the good English white folk knew better than everyone else.


And Wellhausen and Schweitzer thought the good German white folk knew better than everyone else, certainly more than the English and Image the Americans.

In other words, the burial of heads in the has a very long tradition that Christian Fundamentalists carry on with zeal.

Anyway, what the fuck did Jesus know anyway? How dare he cross out the all the old laws in one swoop and replace them all with all with 2 rules (btw, the 10 commandments he basically waved off are what people get so upset about being removed from courts).


According to Paul who never met him. According to Mt--who also never met him having written far to late and relied on late sources--Junior demanded that not "one yod" of the Torah be changed. Historically, given that Paul conflicted with the "Pillars of Jerusalem" which included James, the Brother of Junior, it is reasonable to conclude that there was no such suggestion to toss away Torah. On the contrary, Paul failed with Jews and pursued the "Big Daddy Fearers" amongst the Greeks and Romans. These were not interested in, say, circumcision. "Hey, Tim? I need you to do me a favor. Want to go to Jerusalem?"

So the Christian Fundamentalists who preach Supercessionism doubly contradict the very history of their faith. They reject the Historical Junior.

The Old Testament says something about gay being bad, so fuck Jesus.


Yup, but people have been fucking him from the beginning. Despite the enthusiastic declarations of believing scholars and even a few secular scholars who just want to be able to write something about the Historical Junior, nothing definitive has survived from him. Every saying is composed in the wrong language. It is perhaps surprising that Paul, who never met him and suffered from that against rivals--"super apostles" to use his derogatory term--show absolutely no interest in the historical figure. Perhaps it is all to diminish the fact he never met him and had been accused of basically making up his own shit. Still, you think he would be curious. Why I often describe him as a loon desperately seeking a cult to lead. Junior is a "founding figure" that he can make up whatever he want and pretend represents what he wants.

Comparing the agreed Pauline letters, one finds development in his theology. Who developed it? Certainly not Junior. It is Paul making things up--like Junior abolishing the Torah--as he went along in response to various problems that arise among different communities, some members of which do not particularly like or trust him.

But then, this is exactly what modern Fundamentalist Christians do: ascribe whatever they want to a mythical founding figure who has no relationship to any possible historical figure.

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Re: Is the Bible really the Word of God?

Postby corplinx » Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:34 am

I'm well aware of your reading of the HB statements on gayness which concluded that in one case, the law was to not be the bottom bitch (I am paraphrasing for humorous purposes).

Variations of the great commandment appear in 3 of the gospels and allow the mythical Jesus to hand wave off the laws of the Torah with a simple commandment of faith (for that old time religion) and a more Hellenistic maxim.

Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. He couldn't be any more clear (even though his historicity is Asymptotic to zero).

My point really, is that even if you read the OT as condoning of anti-gay sentiment as a Christian, Jesus came down from heaven and said "this is the fucking law idiots".

Paul of course, figures out how to sell it to the gentiles via divine revelation that keeping Kosher is bullshit.

Criticisms of Wellhausen aside, moving Protestantism not only pre-Wellhausen as a hard-line in seminaries but also pre-Calvin by rejecting accommodation are two major mile markers that the the inerrant fanatics have accomplished. Evangelical American Protestantism is a joke around the globe.

I wish I had more information about the conservative resurgence and the Chicago statement. If I had to guess based on human nature, it wasn't merely a reaction to the effects of science, archaeology, etc on the knowledge of the Bible. The inerrant movement allowed for the "good people" to think bad things (e.g. homophoba) in large numbers. It allowed for men to righteously believe that women are the lesser sex. It seems almost like a late reaction to the 60s. The last grasp of bigoted white men to preserve the America where gays are out of sight and women know their place.

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Re: Is the Bible really the Word of God?

Postby Doctor X » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:18 pm

corplinx wrote:I'm well aware of your reading of the HB statements on gayness which concluded that in one case, the law was to not be the bottom bitch (I am paraphrasing for humorous purposes).


Credit where credit is due: I agree with the scholar's analysis of the Levitical passages. To be fair, they would become interpreted in a much more expansive fashion. Yet there remains considerable debate on how realistic many of the rules were, and whether they were intended to be followed. There are a whole lot of laws that are just impracticable if not impossible to follow. The point of all of that is "Torah"--which should not be translated as "Law" or even "law"--was not a monolithic entity representing a coherent set of practices even when you get to the time of Junior as modern Fundamentalists like to imagine.

Variations of the great commandment appear in 3 of the gospels and allow the mythical Jesus to hand wave off the laws of the Torah with a simple commandment of faith (for that old time religion) and a more Hellenistic maxim.


Indeed, but it appears in Mk which serves as a source for both Mt and Lk so its inclusion is not surprising. Yet, the very texts contradict it, and Mt famously denies the removal of Torah. For Mt, everything is a fulfillment of a prophecy in the Greek LXX version even if he does not quite get it right: virgin births and trying to ride two mounts at the same time are two of the more infamous examples. Same for Mk who definitely messes up some quotations. All of them were written long after Paul shuffled off this mortal coil presumably. So if the Mythical Junior is able to hand wave, it is really the respective Mythical Junior of each writer waving in a different way.

My point really, is that even if you read the OT as condoning of anti-gay sentiment as a Christian, Jesus came down from heaven and said "this is the fucking law idiots".


Buuuuuuuuuuut . . . it depends on which Junior you are dealing with. Understood that your basic Fundi has no understanding or care for this. He has his Junior--white and Aryan and speaking English--and will interpret "scripture" to fit it. Casting that and them aside into the Firey Pit where they gnasheth their teeth and devils with sharp pointy [Get on with it.--Ed.] you have Junior denouncing divorce.

Now some scholars claim this is a "t3h 0r1g1n4l" saying. I do not declare they are "wrong"; I am just not convinced their evidences--thanks--are nothing more than "well, I like this one." The Historical Junior would not have preached in Greek, even "common" Greek. It is not a translation of an Aramaic Vorlage. Either way how does that fit with "Da Golden Rulez?"

Not that you are arguing otherwise.

Paul of course, figures out how to sell it to the gentiles via divine revelation that keeping Kosher is bullshit.


Worse: getting circumcised. Try to get an adult to do that.

The inerrant movement allowed for the "good people" to think bad things (e.g. homophoba) in large numbers. It allowed for men to righteously believe that women are the lesser sex. It seems almost like a late reaction to the 60s. The last grasp of bigoted white men to preserve the America where gays are out of sight and women know their place.


Well, indeed. People have for centuries read into the texts--esegesis--whatever they have wanted. As above, the texts sort of lend themselves to that since the authors did that very thing. Modern Fundamentalists simply declare what they believe "inerrant" by fiat and actively seek not to challenge those beliefs.

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Re: Is the Bible really the Word of God?

Postby ed » Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:26 pm

I understand the concept of bible scholarship but I have a basic problem with it.

At my core, my most basic belief about the bible is that it is a story created for reasons that do not remotely interest me. Maybe they were cautionary tales, maybe they were stories to keep people in power or to get them chicks. I really have little interest.

That said, the nature of "criticism" of the books or study or spending time on them is, to my mind, about the same as serious study of the lore of Middle Earth. The stuff is all made up, or elaboration or badly transmitted history. My interest expends only so far as to be able to aptly summarize my problems with it in a tightly reasoned paragraph.

Unfortunately, my lack of understanding of the issues makes the posts above this one impenetrable at best. What I take away from that back and forth is that my notion of the bible being a mutable document is well founded, which, in itself, makes it useless for any sort of divine guide.

The catholic doctrine of it being written by men but inspired by god reeks of jesuits. What a supremely useless construct (for humanity, not the church). It just surprises me that the fraud has gone on this long.
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Re: Is the Bible really the Word of God?

Postby corplinx » Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:23 am

Well, the modern fundamentalist has a revisionist history of the Bible where everyone involved with it until the Church of England version had the holy spirit's hand up their mass.

Nevermind that the various Orthodox churches have their own Canons. The KJV is the blessed scripture because white people lacking unibrows made it.

For the Catholic, even the Canon of Trent is by admission a decision by committee and not by God.

One's opinion about the canonicity of various Biblical inclusions used to be important versus blindly accepting that one group or another had gotten the canon right.

Song of Solomon is a lusty poem with no real point or purpose in the Bible. Some were unhappy with the status of it in the canon. Failing to remove it, they just lie about what it means. "Uhh.... it is about God and the Church, or something; don't even fucking ask about the one line about climbing the palm tree to grab the coconuts".

We know all the various councils and committees that made the Bible what it is today. It is one of the worst acts of committee in history. They didn't even fix the continuity issues or the conflicts in the Gospels.

When people tell me the Bible is infallible, one of the trolls I pull is saying "yeah, but not that stupid King James revision. Gutenberg is the one true Bible".

You don't need to do a ton of research these days to get the TL;DR version of how the Bible was compiled.

These days it breaks down to this:
1. The Bible was compiled, recompiled, recompiled again any number of times based on which edition you are reading
2. Hebrew Bible scholarship has progressed since the Document Hypothesis into looking into the societal, political, or cultural motivations for the revisions found within it. For Scholars, they are beyond answer the "is it true" to reading it as a study of the people who wrote, copied, and edited it. No serious HB scholar goes looking for Noah's Ark.
3. Much research has gone into the New Testament canon but the historicity of the Gospels themselves means that believing in Jesus regardless of whether or not the Bible is infallible is still an act of Faith.
4. Like the Hebrew Bible, serious scholarship looks into decoding the motivations of the authors and editors. Apologist/Fundamentalist scholarship still treats Revelation as a prophetic book even though that notion gets you laughed out of serious quarters.

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Re: Is the Bible really the Word of God?

Postby Doctor X » Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:43 am

corplinx wrote:One's opinion about the canonicity of various Biblical inclusions used to be important versus blindly accepting that one group or another had gotten the canon right.


Canon was always a process of promoting the books you like and denouncing the books of people you do not like.

They didn't even fix the continuity issues or the conflicts in the Gospels.


They tried. People promoted favorite gospels--one of the earliest known was Marcion--or tried to create harmonizations. It does not really work since some contradictions you cannot fix, particularly internal contradictions such as trying to ride two colts at the same time. Then there are embarrassing geographical errors in Mk. I tend to agree with those that feel one particular one that has swine running some thirty miles to find the sea resulted from the author combining earlier sources without either recognizing the error or not caring. I tend to think more the former as in if I write a story about Russia. Unless I meet a Rat Commie Bastard, no one will notice my error in having the Volga flow the wrong way.

When people tell me the Bible is infallible, one of the trolls I pull is saying "yeah, but not that stupid King James revision. Gutenberg is the one true Bible".


You could or you could let them know that the primary source texts were not known at the time of its translation. Or you can sniff and ask, "what? You mean you cannot read Greek or Hebrew?"

You don't need to do a ton of research these days to get the TL;DR version of how the Bible was compiled.

No serious HB scholar goes looking for Noah's Ark.


Non-Christian scholars generally do not. There is more of a drive to figure out what history the texts witness. How does it mesh with archaeology, et cetera.

. . . means that believing in Jesus regardless of whether or not the Bible is infallible is still an act of Faith.


I would call that an act of willful ignorance, for if one still believes in any of the mythic figures, one has not done his homework. For me, "faith" is the belief in things without evidence and often in the face of contrary evidence. As for a historical figure nothing more is know of him other than he lived and was probably executed since the story exists rather early. Why is the big question. I tend to feel he made enough noise to cause a disturbance so the Romans hauled his ass off. If his movement was anything like a threat, the Romans under Ol' Pontius would have hunted them down. You would not have them living in Jerusalem decades later, receiving visitors, and, of course, money.

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Re: Is the Bible really the Word of God?

Postby ed » Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:06 am

Fascinating. I need to form some questions.
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