Do Muslims and Christians worship the same god?

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Do Muslims and Christians worship the same god?

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:21 am

OK, that's a weird question coming from an atheist. A bit like asking whether the Yeti and the Sasquatch are the same species.

It's not really my question, but apparently it's an important one for some people:

Do Muslims and Christians worship the same god? College suspends professor who said yes.

More like a school for religious indoctrination than a college, but that's how the Washington Post describes it.
Wheaton College, a prominent evangelical school in Illinois, has placed a professor on administrative leave after she posted on Facebook that Muslims and Christians “worship the same God.”

The official school statement Tuesday about associate professor of political science Larycia Hawkins’s suspension said Wheaton professors should “engage in and speak about public issues in ways that faithfully represent the College’s evangelical Statement of Faith.”
What she posted:
“I stand in human solidarity with my Muslim neighbor because we are formed of the same primordial clay, descendants of the same cradle of humankind,” she wrote. “I stand in religious solidarity with Muslims because they, like me, a Christian, are people of the book … But as I tell my students, theoretical solidarity is not solidarity at all. Thus, beginning tonight, my solidarity has become embodied solidarity.”
And maybe they were also unhappy about this:
Muslims "like me, a Christian, are people of the book," she wrote on Facebook, explaining her decision. "And as Pope Francis stated last week, we worship the same God."
Maybe citing the pope as an authority is another mark against her at an "evangelical school". I wonder whether they would even agree that the pope "worships the same god"?

What's more, she's wearing a hijab to show "solidarity" with Muslims, and now student protesters are supporting her by doing the same. Those uppity students! How dare they question the received dogma!
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Re: Do Muslims and Christians worship the same god?

Post by sparks » Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:00 am

As you pointed out, it's a useless question. Why not just avoid the nonsense if your position is that there is no god whatsoever? The fact that the faithful do merely points up their delusion. One more time. The fact that whatshername got in trouble at work just goes to show just how rickety their belief structure actually is.
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Re: Do Muslims and Christians worship the same god?

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:53 am

It is a useless question, but still a kind of interesting one to me.

I call myself an atheist, but to get a little more specific, I don't believe in a "personal god".

"Personal" here has a different meaning from say "personal computer" or "personal belongings".
A personal god is a deity who can be related to as a person[1] instead of as an impersonal force, such as the Absolute, "the All", or the "Ground of Being".

In the scriptures of the Abrahamic religions, God is described as being a personal creator, speaking in the first person and showing emotion such as anger and pride, and sometimes appearing in anthropomorphic shape.[2] In the Pentateuch, for example, God talks with and instructs his prophets and is conceived as possessing volition, emotions (such as anger, grief and happiness), intention, and other attributes characteristic of a human person.


So Muslims, Christians and Jews all believe in a "personal god". It is, if you think about it, a rather self-contradictory belief system: On the one hand, god is supposed to be a "perfect being", much wiser and morally superior to mere humans. On the other hand, god has all these rather petty human emotions and motives it seems. How do these things square with each other? The logic that they all believe in the same god is why they call them the "Abrahamic religions": they all believe in the myth of Abraham and claim to worship the god he worshiped. So in that sense, it is the same one. But they differ on other myths about god, so maybe not.
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Re: Do Muslims and Christians worship the same god?

Post by specious_reasons » Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:13 am

Wheaton College is super crazy Evangelical, it wouldn't surprise me a bit that they would suspend a professor for even suggesting that Allah is the same as the Christian God. It's where Midwestern Evangelicals go when they want to go to college, but don't want to be tempted by an actual college experience. One or two of my evangelical friends had siblings that went there.

...and the Pope is a really nice guy and all, but he's got Christianity all wrong. His word is *not* law in Wheaton College.

As an aside, Wheaton was nearby Mrs. Reason's office, and the overprivileged rich white Christians were one of the reasons why she wanted a change of practice.
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Re: Do Muslims and Christians worship the same god?

Post by Doctor X » Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:23 am

Anaxagoras wrote:BLAH!BLAH!BLAH! Why ワイフ's browser have search history for "goats," "honey," and "air frames?"
Wheaton College
Is all you need to know.

Students and faculty sign a statement accepting, among other nonsense, biblical literacy which, of course, is antithetical to critical thought and basic reality. They fired a professor who converted to Catholicism. It is an academic joke.

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Re: Do Muslims and Christians worship the same god?

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:07 pm

It is a meaningless (not just "useless") question unless said deity actually exists.

Otherwise, it's different figments of different imaginations.

Likewise for Christians and Jews despite the higher level of shared mythology.

Likewise, any two people sitting next to each other in shul, church, masjid, etc.
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Re: Do Muslims and Christians worship the same god?

Post by izittrue » Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:30 pm

But do Catholics and Christians worship the same God as Jews?
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Re: Do Muslims and Christians worship the same god?

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:40 pm

The Muslim one doesn't have a son.
The Jewish one doesn't have a mother.

Any questions? :lmao:
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Re: Do Muslims and Christians worship the same god?

Post by Rob Lister » Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:14 pm

Abdul wins the thread.

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Re: Do Muslims and Christians worship the same god?

Post by sparks » Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:00 pm

Agreed!

Further, I nominate this thread for 'Awesome' in the category of 'Useless'. It's all moot if you reason that Gawd, 'personal' or otherwise, doesn't exist.
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Re: Do Muslims and Christians worship the same god?

Post by Anaxagoras » Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:51 am

sparks wrote:Agreed!

Further, I nominate this thread for 'Awesome' in the category of 'Useless'. It's all moot if you reason that Gawd, 'personal' or otherwise, doesn't exist.
So rather than start a new useless thread, I've been wondering about the Gawd thing lately.

Throw out all the myths, which are obviously just that: myths which primitive people who had no idea what exactly the world was, its shape, or how we got here made up to tell each other. Fine. The idea of a personal god like Odin, Zeus, Ra or YHWH is obviously laughably wrong. Throw all of that nonsense out.

If we start from scratch and use science, and accept the findings of science, we still are left with a question: where does the universe come from? What is the universe anyway? Maybe a totally different sort of god from the ones imagined by cavemen?
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Re: Do Muslims and Christians worship the same god?

Post by Witness » Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:16 am

Anaxagoras wrote:If we start from scratch and use science, and accept the findings of science, we still are left with a question: where does the universe come from? What is the universe anyway? Maybe a totally different sort of god from the ones imagined by cavemen?
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Re: Do Muslims and Christians worship the same god?

Post by Doctor X » Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:48 am

Did someone summon a pendant?!!
Anaxagoras wrote:The idea of a personal god like Odin, Zeus, Ra or YHWH is obviously laughably wrong. Throw all of that nonsense out.
But some of them were "personal" early. There were locative versions of Zeus and YHWH. See how YHWH is portrayed by some of the writers in the Hebrew Bible--walks around, talks to you, makes sure he keeps you safe when his glory walks buy.

One a god becomes more of a national Big Daddy god, there comes examples of lesser gods who sort of become someone you can talk to. The comparisons are not exact, obviously, and--yes--Japanese Original Shinto deities serve a very similar purpose. These gods handle the sort of things people care about.

Junior is exactly that to the annoyance of Christians after about 300 years until now. "A son of a god" is very Hellenistic and general Mesopotamian concept. It does not bother early writers. Later? What is Junior if this is suppose to be monotheistic? At the time, Jews and Greek/Roman "god fearers" recognize a "Big Daddy" θεός. Junior prays to him. Remember, the earliest extant narrative gospel has no "nativity" or birth narrative. Instead, Junior appears to be baptized and The Spook descends upon him. He later gives up said "Spook!" when he dies. This has led adoptionist interpretations--that Junior was nothing more than "some guy" that Big Daddy "borrowed." There are alterations to the text of Mark to combat this interpretation.

As a "son of a god" he is someone you can talk to. Hence today--your "personal lord and savior." Yet note the problem: how can he be that and be Big Daddy at the same time? Centuries of "trinity" and other failed apologetics cannot fix that. Note also how Catholicism solved part of the problem by allowing "saints"--people who have supernatural powers in some areas to whom you may appeal. That is the essence of polytheism, but no one wants to admit it.
If we start from scratch and use science, and accept the findings of science, we still are left with a question: where does the universe come from? What is the universe anyway? Maybe a totally different sort of god from the ones imagined by cavemen?
You then fall into the "god of the gaps." Now, I do not even play an astro nor quantum physicist on television, but some of those question may not even exist. For example: if time as we know it started with the Big Bang it becomes irrelevant and impossible to discuss "before" the Big Bang. There may be no "where" since quantum fluctuations mean that a Big Bang can happen. Again, that is according to what I read which I do not pretend to understand! However, I do know that Stephen Hawking rather infamously noted:

[youtube][/youtube]

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Re: Do Muslims and Christians worship the same god?

Post by sparks » Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:29 am

That's the ticket right there. Thanks Doctor!

Anax says: "If we start from scratch and use science, and accept the findings of science, we still are left with a question: "

No. No we are not left with any questions. Suggest you read more Hawking. All is knowable and does not require The Almighty Fuckwad.
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Re: Do Muslims and Christians worship the same god?

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:39 am

All is knowable ...
Not getting theistic here, but don't be silly. :)
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Re: Do Muslims and Christians worship the same god?

Post by sparks » Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:51 am

You are the only 'silly' person here AA, save Tink.

So, we leave 'silly' to youse twoose.

To reiterate: All things are knowable via science. Science is a method available to all who seek to know. It is not Gawd, nor a religion. It can be silly, but usually isn't, unlike yourself sir.

Furthermore: Silly walks and the ministry thereof. (No link. Look it up yourself.)
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Re: Do Muslims and Christians worship the same god?

Post by Witness » Sat Dec 19, 2015 6:26 am

Well, already in mathematics, if you admit axioms "powerful" enough to do basic stuff like arithmetic, there are true propositions you can't prove (and proving is the mathematician's way of "knowing" something) – the Gödel unpleasantness.
But don't worry, sparks, you're in good company – Hilbert himself thought that, given the axioms, one could mechanically churn out all the ensuing theorems.
Alas no, some "truths" will always remain unreachable. :(


Now I would like to know if there are more Muslim or Christian angels on the head of a pin… 8)

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Re: Do Muslims and Christians worship the same god?

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sat Dec 19, 2015 6:33 am

Never mind the angels on the head of the pin.

What about the jinn in the toilet? :o
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Re: Do Muslims and Christians worship the same god?

Post by Anaxagoras » Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:52 am

Doctor X wrote: You then fall into the "god of the gaps." Now, I do not even play an astro nor quantum physicist on television, but some of those question may not even exist. For example: if time as we know it started with the Big Bang it becomes irrelevant and impossible to discuss "before" the Big Bang. There may be no "where" since quantum fluctuations mean that a Big Bang can happen. Again, that is according to what I read which I do not pretend to understand! However, I do know that Stephen Hawking rather infamously noted:

[youtube][/youtube]

--J.D.
Here's the problem: M Theory is hardly a proven fact. The video admits this. I watched it and they mention several times that it's all very speculative, as well as completely incomprehensible to the layperson. It seems to be unfalsifiable. There is no laboratory experiment you can perform to prove or disprove it. The same goes for string theory. There was a book about it called Not Even Wrong: The Failure of String Theory and the Search for Unity in Physical Law.

All that said, I think it's a much more likely explanation for the universe than the imaginings of cavemen who didn't even know what lay beyond the farthest mountain they could see from the entrance to their cave.
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Re: Do Muslims and Christians worship the same god?

Post by sparks » Sat Dec 19, 2015 11:35 pm

Witness wrote: Alas no, some "truths" will always remain unreachable. :(
By definition, if it's a truth (even in quotes) then it is knowable. Science is very very good sorting out that which can be known from the bullshit that cannot. And remember, science is a processs. What cannot be proven today may be obvious to all tomorrow.
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