When's this so called afterlife begin?

Hot topics in delusion and rationalization.
User avatar
izittrue
Posts: 6715
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:11 pm
Location: space nye-in
Has thanked: 101 times
Been thanked: 27 times

When's this so called afterlife begin?

Postby izittrue » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:16 pm

I've noticed after attending a few funerals lately that the dearly departed are looking down from heaven at us. No one I know ever looks up at us, so everyone must go to heaven. Anyways I thought the holy book of holes state we all are at rest until the final judgement comes. You bible scholars can you give me some insight into this and perhaps all these Christians don't know their own book.
Will Rogers -
- Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip

User avatar
sparks
Posts: 12840
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:13 pm
Location: Friar McWallclocks Bar -- Where time stands still while you lean over!
Has thanked: 1448 times
Been thanked: 462 times

Re: When's this so called afterlife begin?

Postby sparks » Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:05 pm

The dead get to hang out at Bobs Brazerko Lounge until Jr. comes back again at which time we will be judged and those who've been good little girls and boys will get to stay at Bobs Brazerko Lounge go to heaven.

Actually, you have a choice: You can wait at Friar McWallclocks if you prefer. "Where time stands still while you lean over."
You can lead them to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

User avatar
JEROME DA GNOME
Posts: 5140
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:13 am
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: When's this so called afterlife begin?

Postby JEROME DA GNOME » Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:09 pm

At this point in time, when you are dead, you are dead, you don't go anywhere. The resurrection will bring the dead back to life on earth.
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious.

User avatar
ed
Posts: 31718
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:52 pm
Title: Rhino of the Florida swamps
Has thanked: 381 times
Been thanked: 643 times

Re: When's this so called afterlife begin?

Postby ed » Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:13 pm

It seems that whatever touchy-feely hereafter you can envision is the one you get. No fire and brimstone. Just banal bullshit.
- new minimalist ethos -

User avatar
Doctor X
Posts: 65429
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom
Has thanked: 2954 times
Been thanked: 1887 times

Re: When's this so called afterlife begin?

Postby Doctor X » Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:35 pm

Depends on which book, which mythology.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel

WS CHAMPIONS X3!!! NBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup! SB CHAMPIONS X5!!!!!

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 67877
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 2379 times
Been thanked: 966 times

Re: When's this so called afterlife begin?

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:44 pm

izittrue wrote:I've noticed after attending a few funerals lately that the dearly departed are looking down from heaven at us. No one I know ever looks up at us, so everyone must go to heaven.


The universalist heresy. Very seductive. :twisted:
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box.
-- our mission statement plappendale

User avatar
ed
Posts: 31718
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:52 pm
Title: Rhino of the Florida swamps
Has thanked: 381 times
Been thanked: 643 times

Re: When's this so called afterlife begin?

Postby ed » Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:24 am

Doctor X wrote:Depends on which book, which mythology.

--J.D.


dunno if that matters so much anymore, at least in western societies. It's not even clear what western Christianity teaches except for some saccharine humanist generalizations.

You think that's so? I admit I am way on the outside looking in.
- new minimalist ethos -

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 67877
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 2379 times
Been thanked: 966 times

Re: When's this so called afterlife begin?

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:28 am

FWIW, Jewish belief in going to Heaven is somewhat spotty.

There's definitely a doctrine of eternal life for most folks (not just Jews) after the Messiah arrives, but there's vagueness and folklore (as distinct from definite doctrine) about what happens in the mean time.
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box.
-- our mission statement plappendale

User avatar
JEROME DA GNOME
Posts: 5140
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:13 am
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: When's this so called afterlife begin?

Postby JEROME DA GNOME » Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:40 am

Jews don't even believe in hell. Bible readers would repeat what I said above, there is no expectation of going to heaven or hell presented to the believers in the bible.

Death and resurrection is the theme.
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious.

User avatar
JEROME DA GNOME
Posts: 5140
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:13 am
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: When's this so called afterlife begin?

Postby JEROME DA GNOME » Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:42 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote:There's definitely a doctrine of eternal life for most folks (not just Jews) after the Messiah arrives, but there's vagueness and folklore (as distinct from definite doctrine) about what happens in the mean time.


Right, Adam would not have died. Jesus was an equal sacrifice, a perfect man, to make the account even with Adam's perfect sin.

What is happening now is a proof that man can not rule himself, so the question never needs be asked again.

The dead will resurrect to the earth Adam lived in.
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious.

User avatar
Doctor X
Posts: 65429
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom
Has thanked: 2954 times
Been thanked: 1887 times

Re: When's this so called afterlife begin?

Postby Doctor X » Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:45 am

Image

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel

WS CHAMPIONS X3!!! NBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup! SB CHAMPIONS X5!!!!!

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 21347
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 310 times
Been thanked: 312 times

Re: When's this so called afterlife begin?

Postby gnome » Sat Sep 17, 2016 5:21 am

The reaping of Flight 623

http://loservillex.com/?p=180
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 21347
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 310 times
Been thanked: 312 times

Re: When's this so called afterlife begin?

Postby gnome » Sat Sep 17, 2016 5:23 am

"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
izittrue
Posts: 6715
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:11 pm
Location: space nye-in
Has thanked: 101 times
Been thanked: 27 times

Re: When's this so called afterlife begin?

Postby izittrue » Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:18 pm

Doctor X wrote:Depends on which book, which mythology.

--J.D.

The true original bible is what I speak of DocX...
Will Rogers -

- Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip

User avatar
Doctor X
Posts: 65429
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom
Has thanked: 2954 times
Been thanked: 1887 times

Re: When's this so called afterlife begin?

Postby Doctor X » Sat Sep 17, 2016 5:04 pm

izittrue wrote:The true original bible is what I speak of DocX...


It does not exist nor did it ever exist. The Bible is a collection of texts, many of which represent earlier texts combined, reinterpreted, et cetera, that reflect a good thousand years of religious thinking for a minority class. They do not represent popular religion. Further, the witnesses we have extant are not the earliest in the sense of reflecting the earliest level of composition so we can just sift through to the "original" versions of these texts.

Fine, with that being noted, the concept of an afterlife in the Hebrew Bible ["HB"--Ed.] pretty consistently reflects that surrounding cultures of an "underworld"--Sheol--šĕ’ol--שׁאול--is the land of the dead and is, literally, "underworld" as opposed to the "heavens" or Shamayim--šāmayim--שׁמים--which is where the gods reside. All humans, including prophets of El/YHWH--see Samuel--go to Sheol. It is not a place of "punishment" though it is not pleasant since death is not pleasant. Samuel--when raised by the Witch of Endor to speak with Saul. This is our only extant travelogue on the region from 1 Sam 28. In v.11 she asks Saul literally "who shall I raise up for you?" to which Saul responds that she will "raise up" Samuel. Samuel--using the same verb stem--Hiphil--which is causative or active. This is not a metaphorical "raise."

And of course Samuel does not describe the experience other than to basically tell Samuel he fucked up by not slaughtering every last person as YHWH demands. He does not describe his existence in the realm of the dead. The point of all of this is this is a chosen prophet of YHWH and he does not reside with the gods in the "heavens."

And that is basically it other than poetic references to death.

There is no sense of punishment or reward. As Samuel's proclamation to Saul indicates, his punishment happens on Earth. Similarly with David--YHWH punishes David in his life rather than any afterlife. Punishment that extends beyond a person's life is met on his descendants and people.

The idea of residing with gods, of living in the "heavens" or the land of the gods "above" is far more modern. And here is the mess with regards to NT texts. The gospels are later than the letters of Paul. You still have a dichotomy between "up" and "down" certainly even with the late gospel of John--"from above/from below" upon which I have pontificated previously.

Pulling all of that apart will take some time--and fund research--since they are different mythical concepts. Some of which--as in the case of Paul--you can see "made up on the fly" when he responds to complaints regarding why "it" has not happened. The "Kingdom" is suppose to be a terrestrial thing in a sense. So what about all of those who died? Are they shit out of luck? Paul conjures a raising of the dead to solve this. He would not have to if all of the dead were already in "paradise" but how could they be if "it" has not happened and you can see how this can all make ones head hurt.

But then that would neglect the various traditions known as "Gnostic," the description of which "would send my readers screaming into the night."

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel

WS CHAMPIONS X3!!! NBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup! SB CHAMPIONS X5!!!!!

User avatar
sparks
Posts: 12840
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:13 pm
Location: Friar McWallclocks Bar -- Where time stands still while you lean over!
Has thanked: 1448 times
Been thanked: 462 times

Re: When's this so called afterlife begin?

Postby sparks » Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:35 pm

"A river...to your people!"
You can lead them to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

User avatar
ed
Posts: 31718
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:52 pm
Title: Rhino of the Florida swamps
Has thanked: 381 times
Been thanked: 643 times

Re: When's this so called afterlife begin?

Postby ed » Sat Sep 17, 2016 9:44 pm

peopled by feeding carp
- new minimalist ethos -

User avatar
JEROME DA GNOME
Posts: 5140
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:13 am
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: When's this so called afterlife begin?

Postby JEROME DA GNOME » Sat Sep 17, 2016 10:01 pm

Doctor X wrote:-Sheol--šĕ’ol--שׁאול--is the land of the dead and is, literally, "underworld"


You ignorant fuck.

Sheol means pit or grave, its where dead people go, a hole in the ground.

Jews don't believe in Hell, so why would they use a word meaning 'land of the dead' as if there is a place like Hell if they don't believe in hell.

When you can't get the basics right, anything further will be mistaken. You should stick to plagiarizing.
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious.

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 21347
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 310 times
Been thanked: 312 times

Re: When's this so called afterlife begin?

Postby gnome » Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:45 am

Image
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
Doctor X
Posts: 65429
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom
Has thanked: 2954 times
Been thanked: 1887 times

Re: When's this so called afterlife begin?

Postby Doctor X » Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:48 am

Did I miss something?

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel

WS CHAMPIONS X3!!! NBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup! SB CHAMPIONS X5!!!!!


Return to “Religion & Philosophy”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CCBot [Bot] and 0 guests