Fukushima one year on

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Re: Fukushima one year on

Postby robinson » Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:51 pm

You don't know much about how to influence people. Or how to argue and be effective.

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Re: Fukushima one year on

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:10 pm

robinson wrote:You don't know much about how to influence people. Or how to argue and be effective.

Can't help fools


Relax.
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Re: Fukushima one year on

Postby robinson » Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:15 pm

Aw come on man! You didn't think my Doctor-X impression was funny?
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Re: Fukushima one year on

Postby robinson » Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:17 pm

In the spirit of helping my fellow skeptics become better at battling ignorance and fools, here's an article.

My experience says a lot of it is probably true. Especially the teaching part, which forces you to either face your shortcomings, or get better at just about anything.

While it rarely matters, I find teaching others actually makes me much better, and far more informed about something, than a simplistic argument, which doesn't do shit. It results in my learning a lot, which is fucking awesome. Then I realize I don't really care that much about trying to convince a cynic anyhow, and I update my blog.

It's a win win scenario.
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Re: Fukushima one year on

Postby Anaxagoras » Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:57 pm

Evacuation order for one of the towns, which formerly had 7,400 residents, has been lifted.

Japan Lifts Evacuation Order for Town Near Doomed Nuke Plant

NARAHA, Japan — Japan's government on Saturday lifted a 4 1/2-year-old evacuation order for the northeastern town of Naraha that had sent all of the town's 7,400 residents away following the disaster at the nearby Fukushima nuclear plant.

Naraha became the first to get the order lifted among seven municipalities forced to empty entirely due to radiation contamination following the massive earthquake and tsunami that sent the plant's reactors into triple meltdowns in March 2011.

The central government has said radiation levels in Naraha have fallen to levels deemed safe following decontamination efforts.

According to a government survey, however, 53 percent of the evacuees from Naraha, which is 20 kilometers (12 miles) south of the nuclear plant, say they're either not ready to return home permanently or are undecided. Some say they've found jobs elsewhere over the past few years, while others cite radiation concerns.

Naraha represents a test case, as most residents remain cautious amid lingering health concerns and a lack of infrastructure. In the once-abandoned town, a segment of a national railway is still out of service, with the tracks covered with grass. Some houses are falling down and wild bores roam around at night.

Only about 100 of the nearly 2,600 households have returned since a trial period began in April. Last year, the government lifted evacuation orders for parts of two nearby towns, but only about half of their former residents have returned.
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Re: Fukushima one year on

Postby sparks » Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:51 pm

Has anyone found out where all the core material is located yet? Google produces results that are all over the place:

http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/20 ... over-japan

This next one is a bit more sane:

http://enenews.com/images-show-fuel-gon ... otos-video

Then a couple of links that are echos of the woo in linky 1 and then this which is actually well written and informative sans the hysteria:

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Safet ... -Accident/

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Re: Fukushima one year on

Postby ceptimus » Sat Sep 05, 2015 11:55 pm

Last report indicates cost of accident to be around $100 billion U.S.

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Re: Fukushima one year on

Postby Doctor X » Sun Sep 06, 2015 4:14 am

ceptimus wrote:Last report indicates cost of accident to be around $100 billion U.S.


Thanks Obama!

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Re: Fukushima one year on

Postby sparks » Sun Sep 06, 2015 4:22 am

ceptimus wrote:Last report indicates cost of accident to be around $100 billion U.S.


Give it some time ceptimus. It'll go higher. Just give it a few more years.

The real fun begins when they locate all that core material and start to think about how much it will cost to 're-contain' it all. I can't fucking wait.
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Re: Fukushima one year on

Postby Anaxagoras » Sun Sep 06, 2015 4:43 am

Is it not sufficiently contained already?

I understand that it's not ideal but why can't it just be left as is?
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Re: Fukushima one year on

Postby Anaxagoras » Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:07 am

ceptimus wrote:Last report indicates cost of accident to be around $100 billion U.S.


Even if you only count the cost of extra fossil fuels imported to Japan to make up for all the country's nuclear plants being shut down, that cost alone appears to be in the neighborhood of $37 billion/year. That cost probably isn't included in the "cost of the accident" but it is a cost incurred as a result of the accident.
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Re: Fukushima one year on

Postby sparks » Sun Sep 06, 2015 6:22 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:Is it not sufficiently contained already?

I understand that it's not ideal but why can't it just be left as is?


In as much as no one seems quite sure where it all is, I'd say no. If it turns out it has burned through the floor of the containment building into the ground below then absolutely no. If that's the case, natural forces will spread it all over the place given sufficient time. And remember, this shit ought to be properly shielded for how many thousands of years? The only thing they seem sure of is where it is not: It's not inside the pressure vessels where it belongs. Not just a meltdown as in Three Mile Island but a melt through. In fact, several of them.

No. They can't just walk away from it.

ETA: I wish them the best of luck in reactivating all their other reactors. I believe one at Sendai is online now with a second scheduled for October.
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Re: Fukushima one year on

Postby Doctor X » Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:41 pm

From a Very Reliable Science Publication:

But we don't have to fear nuclear energy just because the Soviets did it the dumb way. That would be like banning cars because some drunk guy crashed one while trying to steer with his penis.

The other two disasters, our homegrown Three Mile Island and the recent Fukushima disaster in Japan, are remarkable in how little damage happened. Nobody died in either of these events from anything nuclear-related (can any other industry boast zero fatalities for two-thirds of their worst-ever accidents?). The public did not get huge blasts of radiation -- not more than they'd have from a single X-ray. The power plants didn't blow up as nuclear bombs (that's physically impossible; they don't have the fissionable material).


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Re: Fukushima one year on

Postby sparks » Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:48 am

"That's why the reactor, steam generating systems, emergency backup generators, all the safety systems, and the spent fuel storage areas are housed in some of the toughest structures mankind has ever built."

Too bad they weren't waterproof. If the backup generators hadn't flooded out, there'd have been no melt throughs.

"The reactor vessel is a nine-inch-thick steel vessel with a stainless steel liner. "

Again, too bad it wasn't built to withstand a melt through.

"But we don't have to fear nuclear energy just because the Soviets did it the dumb way. That would be like banning cars because some drunk guy crashed one while trying to steer with his penis.

The other two disasters, our homegrown Three Mile Island and the recent Fukushima disaster in Japan, are remarkable in how little damage happened. The public did not get huge blasts of radiation -- not more than they'd have from a single X-ray. The power plants didn't blow up as nuclear bombs (that's physically impossible; they don't have the fissionable material)."

Agreed.

But I still wonder where all the core material at Fukushima is.

"Nobody died!!11"

It isn't over yet. Give it another 1000 years. :)
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Re: Fukushima one year on

Postby Anaxagoras » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:06 am

sparks wrote:
Anaxagoras wrote:Is it not sufficiently contained already?

I understand that it's not ideal but why can't it just be left as is?


In as much as no one seems quite sure where it all is, I'd say no. If it turns out it has burned through the floor of the containment building into the ground below then absolutely no. If that's the case, natural forces will spread it all over the place given sufficient time. And remember, this shit ought to be properly shielded for how many thousands of years? The only thing they seem sure of is where it is not: It's not inside the pressure vessels where it belongs. Not just a meltdown as in Three Mile Island but a melt through. In fact, several of them.

No. They can't just walk away from it.


Again, if we're talking about being spread by geologic processes, I'm not sure it really matters. The more it spreads, the more it is diluted, plus the radioactive isotopes in it have half-lives.

ETA: I wish them the best of luck in reactivating all their other reactors. I believe one at Sendai is online now with a second scheduled for October.


Second reactor restarted today:

http://www.oann.com/japan-restarts-seco ... ear-plant/

But it will be some time before Japan has a significant number of reactors operating, according to a recent Reuters analysis that found just seven of 42 operable ractors are likely to be turned on in the next few years.


As I mentioned above, Japan is spending $37 billion/year on fossil fuels to replace the electricity generation that used to be supplied by nuclear. So, I think it would be a good idea to make sure what happened at Fukushima can't happen there, and then get them restarted.
In hindsight some of the design flaws are pretty obvious. Having backup generators in a basement that can be flooded. How did anyone not see the flaw in that?
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Re: Fukushima one year on

Postby sparks » Thu Oct 15, 2015 8:33 pm

Anax says: "Again, if we're talking about being spread by geologic processes, I'm not sure it really matters. The more it spreads, the more it is diluted, plus the radioactive isotopes in it have half-lives."

Ground water movement is sufficiently fast to spread lethal doses of radioactive isotopes 'in the blink of an eye' compared to their half lives. So, I can't agree with you on just leaving the corium where ever it is. No, it has to be located and contained and until it is, they've got one hell of a big health hazard on their hands.

As for the backup diesel generators being located in a basement where they might flood out, well, they never expected a tsunami that big. It's always the shit one can't foresee that bites one in the the ass.

You cannot protect against that which you cannot imagine.

Ideally, these beasts ought to have some sort of passive cooling that requires no outside energy input to function. It should function automatically and be immune to human meddling. (A set of temperature operated valves that would open the convection flow of coolant through a heat exchanger with the air? Once such valves had tripped open due to excessive coolant temp, they should lock open so that some damn fool can't easily throw a switch and close them again. You should literally have to take them apart in order to close them again.) I fear that such a fool proof convection based system isn't possible (could a practical convection cooling system be built and actually handle the heat load??), but if it were, that'd be the ticket to keeping these things from melting in a catastrophic loss of power scenario.
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Re: Fukushima one year on

Postby robinson » Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:49 pm

In other news, after Sandy flooded New York hospital basements, a few people decided to look at where emergency generators and electrical rooms are located in important areas, like hospitals, nuclear reactor sites, water treatment and sewer plants, emergency centers, and emergency shelters.

Finding they are all in basements, or low areas, was an actual shock to the investigations. In other words, by design flooding will destroy the infrastructure of not only nuclear power plants, it will also bring down everything else.
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Re: Fukushima one year on

Postby sparks » Sat Oct 17, 2015 7:40 pm

Stupid is as stupid does. And as smart as we 'primates with plutonium' are is exactly as stupid as we are.
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Re: Fukushima one year on

Postby Rob Lister » Sat Oct 17, 2015 9:07 pm

sparks wrote:Stupid is as stupid does. And as smart as we 'primates with plutonium' are is exactly as stupid as we are.


We'll always be primates sparks. Is it your opinion that all things nuclear should therefore be strictly off limits to us?

From another thread, you wholehearted(?) agree with all things pertaining to defacto global warming position.

Are you willing to stack your fellow primates like cordwood? Or are you willing to be so stacked?

Or maybe you see a more pleasant, thus far excluded middle.

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Re: Fukushima one year on

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sun Oct 18, 2015 2:16 am

Think how much worse it would be if it were felines with plutonium. :o

This is the internet and I am turning this into a kitten thread. :P
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