Thruster evaluation : NASA to be trusted ?

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Re: Thruster evaluation : NASA to be trusted ?

Post by Doctor X » Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:00 am

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Re: Thruster evaluation : NASA to be trusted ?

Post by Bruce » Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:07 am

If they can deliver a hoverboard by end of next year as I was promised by BTTF2, I'll buy it. Screw the theoreticians. They can do what theoreticians always do. Back fill a new theory and publish papers about it. The rest of us will be tricking Biff into running into a manure truck.
Such potential!

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Re: Thruster evaluation : NASA to be trusted ?

Post by DrMatt » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:45 pm

Magnetic thrusters? WTF, are they suffering from ED?
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Re: Thruster evaluation : NASA to be trusted ?

Post by corplinx » Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:04 pm

http://www.wired.com/2014/08/cannae-brand/#x

At least they got cool people involved in the gag if it is hokum.

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Re: Thruster evaluation : NASA to be trusted ?

Post by corplinx » Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:07 pm

I'm still waiting for Thunderf00t to make a video like he did for solar roads....

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Re: Thruster evaluation : NASA to be trusted ?

Post by Rob Lister » Sat May 02, 2015 10:09 am

NASA won't let it go.

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2015/04/ ... -em-drive/
Evaluating NASA’s Futuristic EM Drive
April 29, 2015

A group at NASA’s Johnson Space Center has successfully tested an electromagnetic (EM) propulsion drive in a vacuum – a major breakthrough for a multi-year international effort comprising several competing research teams. Thrust measurements of the EM Drive defy classical physics’ expectations that such a closed (microwave) cavity should be unusable for space propulsion because of the law of conservation of momentum.
Perhaps they can power it with my perpetual motion machine.

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Re: Thruster evaluation : NASA to be trusted ?

Post by Anaxagoras » Sat May 02, 2015 10:45 am

Rob Lister wrote:NASA won't let it go.

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2015/04/ ... -em-drive/
Evaluating NASA’s Futuristic EM Drive
April 29, 2015

A group at NASA’s Johnson Space Center has successfully tested an electromagnetic (EM) propulsion drive in a vacuum – a major breakthrough for a multi-year international effort comprising several competing research teams. Thrust measurements of the EM Drive defy classical physics’ expectations that such a closed (microwave) cavity should be unusable for space propulsion because of the law of conservation of momentum.
Perhaps they can power it with my perpetual motion machine.
Could some sort of quantum effect be happening? In which case it does not "defy physics" but only defies classical physics.

IOW, what is the significance of the qualifier "classical" here?
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Re: Thruster evaluation : NASA to be trusted ?

Post by ceptimus » Sat May 02, 2015 10:49 am

Thrust due to thermal radiation is a real thing and eventually explained the Pioneer anomaly (Wikipedia link).

The Pioneer spacecraft, after all the known perturbations due to planetary gravity were taken into account, were measured to be decelerating by a tiny amount more than the sun's gravity would explain. It's amazing that the amount can be measured at all - it amounts to less than 1 mph every ten years - but it shows how accurately space trajectories and positions can be predicted and measured. Incidentally the same effect could not be expected to be observed for the Voyager spacecraft as they are equipped with thrusters to make course and attitude corrections, and the changes in speed when the thrusters are fired are large enough to mask any 'Pioneer anomaly' that may have been expected to be present.

Anyway, the anomaly was of great interest for many years - maybe it pointed to an error in our best theories of gravity? - but it was eventually completely explained by modelling the thermal recoil force due to the on-board radioisotope generator. The design of the spacecraft meant that more heat from the generator was radiated in some directions than others, and the very slight recoil produced by the radiated heat photons was enough to explain the acceleration.

So a thruster emitting just photons could produce a tiny acceleration - of course a thruster designed for the task would emit many more photons than the Pioneer did, and beam them deliberately all in the same direction. If the energy source came from an on-board source, I think the motor could push a spacecraft in any direction, but if the energy comes from solar panels then there is already a radiation pressure from the sun and I don't think the resulting thrust could push the spacecraft towards the sun - I doubt whether the whole system could produce any more thrust or in any more directions than a 'light sail' or mirror could.

I don't know how practical such a system might be - even if it produced accelerations many orders of magnitude more than the Pioneer anomaly did, it would still take an awful long time to get anywhere.

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Re: Thruster evaluation : NASA to be trusted ?

Post by ed » Sat May 02, 2015 11:15 am

Rob Lister wrote:
Nyarlathotep wrote:The effect is very small. Almost undetectable. Effects that small are just as likely to be some error in measurement as some actual effect.
Not to be pedantic, but not 'just as likely'. Instead, 'almost certainly to a 99.999999999999... probability'. <-----------

:(

I'm such a pedantic asshole.

But i did leave off a few 9's

You left off a right apostrophe (indicated above). Also cleaned up your capitalization a bit.

--- another pedantic asshole
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Re: Thruster evaluation : NASA to be trusted ?

Post by corplinx » Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:03 pm

Rob Lister wrote:NASA won't let it go.

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2015/04/ ... -em-drive/
Evaluating NASA’s Futuristic EM Drive
April 29, 2015

A group at NASA’s Johnson Space Center has successfully tested an electromagnetic (EM) propulsion drive in a vacuum – a major breakthrough for a multi-year international effort comprising several competing research teams. Thrust measurements of the EM Drive defy classical physics’ expectations that such a closed (microwave) cavity should be unusable for space propulsion because of the law of conservation of momentum.
Perhaps they can power it with my perpetual motion machine.
Haters gonna hate:
http://www.sciencealert.com/it-s-offici ... -published
After months of speculation and leaked documents, NASA's long-awaited EM Drive paper has finally been peer-reviewed and published. And it shows that the 'impossible' propulsion system really does appear to work.

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Re: Thruster evaluation : NASA to be trusted ?

Post by Rob Lister » Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:40 am

It shows they haven't found the source of the error. Publication does not truth make.

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Re: Thruster evaluation : NASA to be trusted ?

Post by Witness » Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:59 am

Rob Lister wrote:It shows they haven't found the source of the error. Publication does not truth make.
You're just jealous of all those people out there having free energy perpetual motion machines massless drives.

I read they'll send it in orbit on some micro satellite for an "in vivo" test. I just wonder how much power will be available. (But a science journalist won't stoop down to inquire into so pedestrian matters, right?)

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Re: Thruster evaluation : NASA to be trusted ?

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:10 am

Maybe it really works.

Once again, it is not "reactionless" even if there is no nozzle spewing exhaust.
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Re: Thruster evaluation : NASA to be trusted ?

Post by Bruce » Sun Nov 20, 2016 3:43 am

The thing that interests me the most about this discovery is that it calls into question the particle/wave duality theory in quantum mechanics, which I always thought was a shit theory.

So did Einstein, apparently....

https://www.quantamagazine.org/20160517 ... l-support/
Albert Einstein, among others, objected to this idea. As his biographer Abraham Pais wrote: “We often discussed his notions on objective reality. I recall that during one walk Einstein suddenly stopped, turned to me and asked whether I really believed that the moon exists only when I look at it.”
I liked the less popular Pilot Wave theory.
But there’s another view — one that’s been around for almost a century — in which particles really do have precise positions at all times. This alternative view, known as pilot-wave theory or Bohmian mechanics, never became as popular as the Copenhagen view, in part because Bohmian mechanics implies that the world must be strange in other ways.
Really? This theory was less popular because you have admit that the universe is strange? As if it isn't?

The second most interesting thing is that this discovery appears to violate third law motion, which I always thought was a shit law. :P

:Popcorn:

Why yes, I would like some more controversy on my popcorn.
Such potential!

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Re: Thruster evaluation : NASA to be trusted ?

Post by shemp » Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:20 pm

Just like the Global Warming nonsense, this is just another attempt to destroy America. All right-thinking people (i.e., Trump supporters) know that the rocket fuel that will enable America to conquer the stars is good old American Clean Coal! Why does NASA hate American coal miners and their families? WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THEIR CHILDREN!!??!!1!21!!??/./.!!!!
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Re: Thruster evaluation : NASA to be trusted ?

Post by Witness » Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:24 am

Let's start with airplanes!

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Re: Thruster evaluation : NASA to be trusted ?

Post by sparks » Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:17 am

Horseshit.

We almost had nuclear powered bombers. Then along comes ICBMs. Fuck.
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Re: Thruster evaluation : NASA to be trusted ?

Post by Witness » Wed Nov 23, 2016 4:24 am

↑ sparks wants to see the world burn – but slowly. :mrgreen:

Ars Technica wrote:NASA’s EM-drive still a WTF-thruster
New paper generates more noise than experimental thrust.
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Re: Thruster evaluation : NASA to be trusted ?

Post by sparks » Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:47 pm

Indeed.

Not Burning would be a, heaven forbid, nice thing...
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Re: Thruster evaluation : NASA to be trusted ?

Post by corplinx » Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:59 am

And overnight on the internets, suddenly people became experts on Bohm v. Copenhagen.