What exactly is a 'Gigafactory'

We are the Borg.
User avatar
Anaxagoras
Posts: 20774
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:45 am
Location: Yokohama/Tokyo, Japan
Has thanked: 1311 times
Been thanked: 1092 times

What exactly is a 'Gigafactory'

Post by Anaxagoras » Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:18 pm

They could have just called it a large factory, but gigafactory sounds cooler.

Apparently they are going to make it in Nevada (congrats Nyar!)

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/car ... /15037473/
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

User avatar
Rob Lister
Posts: 19791
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm
Title: Incipient toppler
Location: Swimming in Lake Ed
Has thanked: 567 times
Been thanked: 578 times

Re: What exactly is a 'Gigafactory'

Post by Rob Lister » Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:33 pm

That's a lot of eggs in one basket. Musk is really a one-basket kind of guy. Hard to hate him.

User avatar
DrMatt
BANNED
Posts: 29811
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 4:00 pm
Location: Location: Location!
Has thanked: 143 times
Been thanked: 70 times

Re: What exactly is a 'Gigafactory'

Post by DrMatt » Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:23 am

Anaxagoras wrote:They could have just called it a large factory, but gigafactory sounds cooler.

Apparently they are going to make it in Nevada (congrats Nyar!)

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/car ... /15037473/
Warning: Autoplaying audio with video. It doesn't wait for you to hit Play.
Grayman wrote:If masturbation led to homosexuality you'd think by now I'd at least have better fashion sense.

User avatar
Rob Lister
Posts: 19791
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm
Title: Incipient toppler
Location: Swimming in Lake Ed
Has thanked: 567 times
Been thanked: 578 times

Re: What exactly is a 'Gigafactory'

Post by Rob Lister » Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:14 pm

There is a Kudos to Musk at the end of this, so stay tuned.

RELATED:
Electric vehicle sales are running out of gas
...
"The whole automobile market has grown," Caldwell said. "We’re not seeing electric vehicles as part of that growth."

The numbers are surprising, Caldwell said, to automobile forecasters. Five years ago, analysts thought that electric vehicle sales would continue to expand as more manufacturers put more electric vehicles on the road and as the vehicles' cost came down.

That hasn't happened. Electric vehicle sales have slowed while prices have come down and dealers have been offering increasingly better deals on financing and incentives.

"It isn't growing," Caldwell said. "It's stagnant and even slightly down."
http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/l ... story.html

So ... why?
Buyers are looking at the higher average price of electric vehicles, Caldwell said, and deciding that "the math doesn't really work out."
It is encouraging that the common Joe is doing the common math.

On the flip side of all of that, the waiting list for a Tesla is long an deep. Musk can't make 'em fast enough. Why?

Because his customer base--his target demographic--doesn't consider cost like the common Joe has to. His cars are very high end and phenomenally responsive. The cost of the [short-lived] battery-pack is a much smaller fraction of the cost of the whole package.

The minor inconvenience of the limited range and finding a 'fueling' station is easily countered-balanced by the hand jobs you're going to get driving his brand.

Sure, the cup holders may be too far aft making it difficult to retrieve you're double latte, and maybe the 'blind spot and sound senors' could use some improvement, but if those are the major defects, you've got a win.

User avatar
whitefork
Posts: 3957
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:23 pm
Title: Nearly Normal
Location: I live in Trafalgar Square with four lions to guard me.
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 43 times

Re: What exactly is a 'Gigafactory'

Post by whitefork » Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:32 pm

Tuesday's commute from hell was made somewhat more tolerable because I was driving behind a Tesla Model S most of the way.
Sweet car. I'd like one but it just isn't practical.
If it's good enough for Nelson, it's quite good enough for me.

User avatar
Nyarlathotep
Posts: 47546
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:50 pm
Has thanked: 771 times
Been thanked: 1420 times

Re: What exactly is a 'Gigafactory'

Post by Nyarlathotep » Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:58 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:They could have just called it a large factory, but gigafactory sounds cooler.

Apparently they are going to make it in Nevada (congrats Nyar!)

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/car ... /15037473/
It's just a fancy name for a very large factory that will make batteries for electric cars. And they are building it very close to my neck of the woods too.

It's a pretty big deal down here, because it's a LOT of jobs, something this area desperately needs.
Bango Skank Awaits The Crimson King!

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 69412
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 2776 times
Been thanked: 1065 times

Re: What exactly is a 'Gigafactory'

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:13 pm

A very large factory named by a 'gigalomaniac'. :BigGrin3:
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box.
-- our mission statement plappendale

User avatar
sparks
Posts: 13455
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:13 pm
Location: Friar McWallclocks Bar -- Where time stands still while you lean over!
Has thanked: 1659 times
Been thanked: 532 times

Re: What exactly is a 'Gigafactory'

Post by sparks » Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:34 am

Alternately, it's the place where we grow 'GigaRats'.......
You can lead them to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

User avatar
Rob Lister
Posts: 19791
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm
Title: Incipient toppler
Location: Swimming in Lake Ed
Has thanked: 567 times
Been thanked: 578 times

Re: What exactly is a 'Gigafactory'

Post by Rob Lister » Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:44 am

Tesla's announcement has generated--regenerated--a lot of buzz about the wisdom of this factory. Reading an article on IEEE's Spectrum, I find most the the arguments against fairly short-sighted and over-simplified. I'm kind of on the fence about this myself but for different reasons; my concerns regard the supply chain and rapidly locking themselves into a narrow implementation of a rapidly advancing technology.

But to criticize the critics is necessary too.
According to the new report, by 2020 Tesla could be facing substantial overcapacity, with too many batteries and not enough EV cars — and other applications like renewable grid energy storage — to put them in.
http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/tra ... ll+Text%29

Musk has done the near impossible just by creating a new unaffiliated car company in the U.S. He isn't looking at next year, he's looking at next decade. He is uniquely positioning himself to be the primary source for all battery needs; EV being just one application. Yes, there will be over capacity but only in terms of factory floor space ... until there isn't. He's in the fucking desert; real estate is cheap, ergo, floor space is cheap, ergo, it doesn't matter. They're not going to make more batteries than they have contracts to sell, so the critics point is moot. Musk is creating lots of room to grow and using Other People's Money to do it. This is smart.
And See says Tesla and Panasonic could be hard-pressed to fill the overcapacity gap with orders from other EV carmakers — especially since Tesla’s unique battery design, consisting of thousands of small cells strung together, would render the factory’s output incompatible with cars like the Nissan Leaf and Chevrolet Volt.
What a fucking dolt. Pre-production form-factor is as malleable as play-doe; as easy to change as swapping out dies and plugging in a bit of code. If they have the the raw materials coming in one end of the building, and the right processes and tools inside the building, then they can make what comes out look like anything they want; the cost to change the form factor is trivial in comparison to the cost of the raw materials. If Chevy places an order for batteries in the form of barbie dolls, he could tool up a line in a week ... and guess what, he's got the floor space to accommodate.

The article goes on with more spewage of wrongness. I'm done with it.


Too much coffee.

User avatar
DrMatt
BANNED
Posts: 29811
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 4:00 pm
Location: Location: Location!
Has thanked: 143 times
Been thanked: 70 times

Re: What exactly is a 'Gigafactory'

Post by DrMatt » Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:43 pm

Are musicians getting anything out of the gig factory?
Grayman wrote:If masturbation led to homosexuality you'd think by now I'd at least have better fashion sense.

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 21763
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 336 times
Been thanked: 341 times

Re: What exactly is a 'Gigafactory'

Post by gnome » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:12 pm

Is it 1.21 Gigofactories?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
DrMatt
BANNED
Posts: 29811
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 4:00 pm
Location: Location: Location!
Has thanked: 143 times
Been thanked: 70 times

Re: What exactly is a 'Gigafactory'

Post by DrMatt » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:40 pm

Jiggle factory? Sounds like something from Pastafarian heaven.
Grayman wrote:If masturbation led to homosexuality you'd think by now I'd at least have better fashion sense.

User avatar
Anaxagoras
Posts: 20774
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:45 am
Location: Yokohama/Tokyo, Japan
Has thanked: 1311 times
Been thanked: 1092 times

Re: What exactly is a 'Gigafactory'

Post by Anaxagoras » Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:27 am

Rob Lister wrote:Tesla's announcement has generated--regenerated--a lot of buzz about the wisdom of this factory. Reading an article on IEEE's Spectrum, I find most the the arguments against fairly short-sighted and over-simplified. I'm kind of on the fence about this myself but for different reasons; my concerns regard the supply chain and rapidly locking themselves into a narrow implementation of a rapidly advancing technology.

But to criticize the critics is necessary too.
According to the new report, by 2020 Tesla could be facing substantial overcapacity, with too many batteries and not enough EV cars — and other applications like renewable grid energy storage — to put them in.
http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/tra ... ll+Text%29

They say:
Specifically, the report by Boston-based firm Lux Research projects that Tesla and Panasonic’s gigafactory, now reportedly to be sited in either California or Nevada, will only reduce the price of the next Tesla car, the Model 3, by $2800. (Update: It looks like, if current reporting and Nevada Senator Harry Reid's recent comments are correct, Nevada will be the new factory's home state.) “The Tesla Model 3 will be a success or failure largely irrespective of the Gigafactory,” the report says. “Consumers will make their decision about the appeal and value proposition of a 48 kWh Tesla EV based on other factors, not a $35,000 versus a $37,800 price point.”
If that's true (for the sake of argument) then tesla should leave the price as it is and take the $2800 as additional profit.

Seeing as there is a waiting line to buy these cars, they may currently be leaving money on the table at the current price point.

Jacking up the price would look bad, but just leaving it as it is wouldn't, would it?
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

User avatar
Rob Lister
Posts: 19791
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm
Title: Incipient toppler
Location: Swimming in Lake Ed
Has thanked: 567 times
Been thanked: 578 times

Re: What exactly is a 'Gigafactory'

Post by Rob Lister » Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:49 am

Anaxagoras wrote: They say:
Specifically, the report by Boston-based firm Lux Research projects that Tesla and Panasonic’s gigafactory, now reportedly to be sited in either California or Nevada, will only reduce the price of the next Tesla car, the Model 3, by $2800. (Update: It looks like, if current reporting and Nevada Senator Harry Reid's recent comments are correct, Nevada will be the new factory's home state.) “The Tesla Model 3 will be a success or failure largely irrespective of the Gigafactory,” the report says. “Consumers will make their decision about the appeal and value proposition of a 48 kWh Tesla EV based on other factors, not a $35,000 versus a $37,800 price point.”
If that's true (for the sake of argument) then tesla should leave the price as it is and take the $2800 as additional profit.

Seeing as there is a waiting line to buy these cars, they may currently be leaving money on the table at the current price point.

Jacking up the price would look bad, but just leaving it as it is wouldn't, would it?
I can't see that far ahead. This is not a level economic playing field where S/D curves apply. Consider briefly this article, which is just this week's example of the battle he's waging/facing:
Georgia Car Dealers Ask The State To Shut Down Tesla Store Because It Sold Too Many Cars


It’s no secret that traditional car dealerships aren’t fans of Tesla for selling cars directly to consumers — we’ve seen quite a tussle in other states like New Jersey already, among other states — where officials have considered legislation banning direct sales. And now a group representing about 500 dealerships in Georgia wants the state to revoke Tesla’s license to sell there, too, because it’s sold too many cars already.

The Georgia Automobile Dealers Association filed a complaint with the state’s Department of Revenue last week, reports CNNMoney, claiming that Tesla is illegally selling cars, as it’s sold 173 cars at its one retail store in the state. That’s more than the 150 it’s allowed under state law, the group alleges.

It wants the state to revoke Tesla’s license, and block sales of the Tesla’s Model S sedan at the Marietta, Ga. store, about 25 miles from Atlanta.

Georgia loves electric cars, heck, the state even offers a tax credit that encourages drivers to invest in alternative fuel vehicles. But Tesla is getting too large of a chunk, the dealers say.
http://consumerist.com/2014/09/03/georg ... many-cars/

And I don't think the old guard car makers have even joined the [lobbying] battle against Tesla yet. But they will. And they have billions to bribe with.
Tesla is currently barred from selling directly to consumers in New Jersey, Maryland, Texas and Arizona, and is restricted to simply having showrooms where customers can check out the cars but not actually buy them. Instead, they go online or call Tesla to have them shipped.
Barred. What possible legitimate rationale can a state have for that?

So I don't think consideration of a few grand in price-point is even on the horizon for Musk yet. He's fighting dragons.

User avatar
Anaxagoras
Posts: 20774
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:45 am
Location: Yokohama/Tokyo, Japan
Has thanked: 1311 times
Been thanked: 1092 times

Re: What exactly is a 'Gigafactory'

Post by Anaxagoras » Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:22 pm

They have a chokehold on state politics. It's just crazy. What other businesses have such legal protections to shield them from competition and ensure that they stay in business no matter how archaic and inefficient they are?

Why Buying A Car Never Changes
"Buying a car sucks," Scott Painter says. "It's something that most consumers fear."

Back in the '90s, Painter started a company to try to change this. "The name of the company was Cars Direct," he says. "The mission was to sell cars directly."

Painter wanted his company to build virtual dealerships that would let people go online and buy cars. But after talking with a few car execs, he realized nobody would even consider his idea.

Painter was stopped by a web of state laws that make it very, very difficult to change the way cars are sold. Laws like Alabama statute 8-20-1-13:

Limitations on cancellations, modification, terminations and non renewals of franchise relationship.
Almost every part of the car buying process is enshrined in laws like this one. They restrict where new dealerships can open, giving dealers the exclusive right to sell within their territory. This makes it almost impossible to create an online dealership.

What's more, the the laws make it very hard for manufacturers to close exiting dealerships. Manufacturers don't have leverage over dealerships if they want them "to provide good customer service, low prices, nice facilities, or anything else," says Yale economist Fiona Scott Morton. "That [dealer] gets to stay as long as he wants, and if he does a bad job, that's just what he does," she says.

Car dealers argue that the laws are necessary to protect dealers' investment, and to protect the jobs of people who work at car dealerships.

"If you just take our organization alone, we employ over 2,000 people," says Tammy Darvish, who runs a group of auto dealerships and sits on the board of the National Automobile Dealers Association. "That's 2,000 families throughout greater Washington that are dependent on us continuing our business operations."

There are plenty other businesses employ lots of people but don't have so much protection from state laws.
Yes, but by that logic all businesses that make an investment and employ people need to be protected. It's nuts and it goes against the basic principles of capitalism.

Nevertheless, they certainly are experts at at least one thing: how to buy political influence. It's like a cartel.
Rob Lister wrote:And I don't think the old guard car makers have even joined the [lobbying] battle against Tesla yet. But they will. And they have billions to bribe with.
They could, I suppose, but they can let the dealers do it for them. OTOH old guard car makers might like to be free of some of these laws too. These same laws keep them fettered to the same dealers whether they like it or not. They might want a future where they can do the same thing as Tesla and sell directly to consumers without having to go through these independent dealers.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

User avatar
DrMatt
BANNED
Posts: 29811
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 4:00 pm
Location: Location: Location!
Has thanked: 143 times
Been thanked: 70 times

Re: What exactly is a 'Gigafactory'

Post by DrMatt » Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:24 pm

Harumph. It's not a Gigafactory. It's a Billionfactory, which, as I've pointed out before, is only, 936 Megafactoroes. 1024 Megafactories make a Gigafactory.
Grayman wrote:If masturbation led to homosexuality you'd think by now I'd at least have better fashion sense.

User avatar
Nyarlathotep
Posts: 47546
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:50 pm
Has thanked: 771 times
Been thanked: 1420 times

Re: What exactly is a 'Gigafactory'

Post by Nyarlathotep » Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:30 pm

Of course, I just read that the state gave the factory so many tax breaks and other incentives that they are effectively paying Tesla about $200,000 per job created (or a "mere" $60,000, if you count jobs indirectly created). So I don't think we are going to see any real benefit from the factory except maybe in the very long run. Maybe.

I will post a link when I can find one later today, if anyone is interested.
Bango Skank Awaits The Crimson King!

User avatar
Rob Lister
Posts: 19791
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm
Title: Incipient toppler
Location: Swimming in Lake Ed
Has thanked: 567 times
Been thanked: 578 times

Re: What exactly is a 'Gigafactory'

Post by Rob Lister » Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:39 pm

Nyarlathotep wrote:Of course, I just read that the state gave the factory so many tax breaks and other incentives that they are effectively paying Tesla about $200,000 per job created (or a "mere" $60,000, if you count jobs indirectly created). So I don't think we are going to see any real benefit from the factory except maybe in the very long run. Maybe.

I will post a link when I can find one later today, if anyone is interested.
It is a tough deal but it is a competitive market. In terms of the tax breaks, what would they receive in taxes if Musk went to somewhere else? 0. In terms of incentives, I suppose it depends on the incentive.

User avatar
Rob Lister
Posts: 19791
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:15 pm
Title: Incipient toppler
Location: Swimming in Lake Ed
Has thanked: 567 times
Been thanked: 578 times

Re: What exactly is a 'Gigafactory'

Post by Rob Lister » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:57 am

Two related updates
Nevada Doesn't Realize It Got Robbed by Elon Musk
Tax breaks for Tesla are outrageous, writes the Wall Street Journal

Politicians in Nevada are patting themselves on the back for securing a deal with Elon Musk to be the home of Tesla's future "gigagfactory" to build electric-car batteries. Instead, they ought to be apologizing to state taxpayers for giving away the store to Musk, write the editors at the Wall Street Journal. Sure, it's common practice these days for governments to grant tax breaks in order to lure businesses. "But the Tesla giveaway is in a category of its own, coming in an unproven market for a company that has never recorded an annual profit (based on generally accepted accounting principles), notwithstanding various subsidies," says the editorial.

Tesla will pay no property taxes for 10 years or sales taxes for 20, at a price of $1.1 billion to taxpayers. It will also get a discount of 10% to 30% on its electric bill, which means other customers will pay an extra $1.84 a year to make up for it. There's more, but the bottom line is that the company will essentially do business tax-free in the state, which presumably could have gotten a better deal given that it has the only active lithium mines in the US. Musk is a genius, writes the Journal: "He's figured out that as long as you pick a politically favored industry you can be one of the world's richest men and still get taxpayers to finance your operations and become even richer." Nevada politicians who got "fleeced" could learn a lesson.
http://www.newser.com/story/195975/neva ... -musk.html

The WSJ editorial is paywalled. If the excepts are a reflection of the content, it isn't worth two cents. I bolded the first sentence because that really sums up the fail of the opinion (in my opinion). :)

"At a Price Of x to Taxpayers"

What would the good folks in Nevada get in terms of property taxes on that otherwise undeveloped land? What would they get in Sales Taxes from sales that do not otherwise exist? Tripe.

It appears to me that Nevada's risk amounts to building some roads and accommodating infrastructure. If the Musk venture is successful (and it will be nearly 10 years before we'll know) then the payback is going to be enormous for the good folk in that state (Nyarl notwithstanding :) ).


And on Musk's Rocket Science front ...
NASA handed out two contracts worth $6.8 billion today and with them announced the imminent return of human spaceflight from the US. Boeing and SpaceX "have each presented to us designs that will allow us to fly crews to the International Space Station in just a few years," says NASA chief Charles Bolden. The companies have been working on their manned spacecraft since 2010, a year before the NASA space shuttle program was retired. Since then, the US has had to rely on Russia's Soyuz spacecraft for trips to the space station.
http://www.newser.com/story/195990/boei ... light.html

IMS (and it may not), this contract was initially awarded to Boeing exclusively. Musk threatened to sue and NASA decided to 'review' the award. I'm guessing that the SpaceX proof of concept is so far and above anything Boeing has brought to the table that it would have been impossible not to reconsider the award in the face of a lawsuit with judicial review. Boeing had the right 'certifications' for legibility, whereas SpaceX, being so new, has little in the way of actual Past Performance (capitalized because it is a very important section of an RFP) The problem with the Musk design is that it is simple and cheap. NASA doesn't 'get' that.

The Musk approach to business and engineering is so very far removed from the norm that it is like he's from a different planet. He is threatening the old guard and the old guard is not happy with him. They are powerful and have huge resources in terms of political clout and media placement. The hit pieces on Musk will increase. I'm looking for them to get personal pretty soon.

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 69412
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 2776 times
Been thanked: 1065 times

Re: What exactly is a 'Gigafactory'

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:50 pm

Uh oh.

Time for Harry Reid to save Nevada from the Koch brothers again.
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box.
-- our mission statement plappendale