The aliens are silent because they're dead

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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:38 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Anaxagoras wrote:If we are the only ones, well, it sure would be a huge waste of space. :wink:


An argument that implicitly presupposes an intelligent designer.


Hence my winky. :wink:


I have seen such arguments with a straight face from people who should know better.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:52 am

It's really not such a stretch to suppose there can be unique phenomena in so vast a universe.
Indeed there should be (you should pardon the expression) billions and billions of unique phenomena.

That one planet where conditions are just right for some particular mineral to produce crystals exactly a certain shape and size.

That one planet where conditions are just right for organic chemicals to agonize over existence.

etc. :)
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:56 am

Bruce wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:One way or the other, we're all alone. :)


If you're going to dream, dream small. Very small. :roll:


Dream small?

If we're all alone, it's our universe.

Homo sap sap, sole proprietor. :coolspecs:

Well us and the cockroaches, anyway. :notsure:
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby Anaxagoras » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:11 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote:It's really not such a stretch to suppose there can be unique phenomena in so vast a universe.
Indeed there should be (you should pardon the expression) billions and billions of unique phenomena.

That one planet where conditions are just right for some particular mineral to produce crystals exactly a certain shape and size.

That one planet where conditions are just right for organic chemicals to agonize over existence.

etc. :)


The anthropic principle?

Yeah, could be. But the universe is so huge that I suspect that if something happens once somewhere, it has or will also happen somewhere else. Not in precisely the same way of course. Of course, could be so far away (in space and/or time) that we will never know about it.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby Harte » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:49 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
Harte wrote:A guy on ATS just forced me to do the calculation. A 20 gigawatt signal one light year away would reach us with the undetectable power of around 20X10^-22 watts.

IOW, no way Jose.

Try it yourself: link

Don't forget to:
1) convert light years to meters,
2) square the distance

Harte


Plus, wouldn't stuff like the nearby star also mask this signal with lots of electromagnetic noise?

Absolutely. But it could be handled by using frequencies that can stand out from the nearby star.

Everyone should stop and think about a signal strength of 20 GW. The highest powered signal we use to my knowledge is with certain high power radars which are directed but have a power density of one to five gigawatts.
Anaxagoras wrote:I forget, but isn't SETI looking for aliens that might be intentionally sending us a message? It might be hard to pick up their signals if they aren't pointing them right at us, right? Because, why do that anyway? Yeah, perhaps we've done it once or twice ourselves, but we're weird.

I guess they do it because there isn't anything else we can do at the present time and (apparently) we don't want to just sit around wondering and not trying in some way to find out.

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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby Harte » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:51 am

Anaxagoras wrote:Scientists can be silly sometimes, too though.

Take those gold-plated records they sent out with the Voyager probes. Did anyone stop to calculate the odds that anyone would ever find these things floating out there in deep space? You'd probably have a better chance of winning the powerball lottery 10 times in a row with just 10 tickets (number pulled out of my ass, sure, but it's only magical thinking to suppose that those probes will ever be seen by anyone other than us again.)

They shoulda gone with vinyl then.

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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby Witness » Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:47 am

The Case for a Gaian Bottleneck: The Biology of Habitability

Abstract

The prerequisites and ingredients for life seem to be abundantly available in the Universe. However, the Universe does not seem to be teeming with life. The most common explanation for this is a low probability for the emergence of life (an emergence bottleneck), notionally due to the intricacies of the molecular recipe. Here, we present an alternative Gaian bottleneck explanation: If life emerges on a planet, it only rarely evolves quickly enough to regulate greenhouse gases and albedo, thereby maintaining surface temperatures compatible with liquid water and habitability. Such a Gaian bottleneck suggests that (i) extinction is the cosmic default for most life that has ever emerged on the surfaces of wet rocky planets in the Universe and (ii) rocky planets need to be inhabited to remain habitable. In the Gaian bottleneck model, the maintenance of planetary habitability is a property more associated with an unusually rapid evolution of biological regulation of surface volatiles than with the luminosity and distance to the host star.


"Gaian regulation"? :shock: But I found the arguments worth a read: http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/ast.2015.1387

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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby sparks » Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:11 pm

"...does not seem to be teeming with life..."

Well, it seems the time has come for some marginally tighter definitions for the fuckwits making that claim.

I mean, damnit! This thing (the Cosmos) very nearly qualifies as infinitely big and infinitely old. Throw into that mix the fact that we are here. Now, go masturbate, throw your jizz on Tink, then take a shit and throw that at a GOP presidential candidate(s) and fucking well figure it out.

It ain't all that difficult.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby Rob Lister » Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:53 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:
An alien civilization just a few centuries more advanced than us in radio technology could detect even these weak signals over vast distances in the galaxy


I think they are making assumptions about future advances in technology. Perhaps reasonable assumptions, but still assumptions.


Many of those assumptions are rooted in physics; they are actually mathematical proofs. Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_detectable_signal
And since the universe itself has a noise floor, no matter the receiving technology, past a certain point at any given power level, they can't hear us and we can't hear them.

And THAT is the problem with SETI. But SETI isn't [or wasn't] worthless. They demonstrated that life isn't very, very nearby. That is useful and without looking, you cannot otherwise know.

But there is another way. If you can see the planet you can detect the existence of life--And maybe even intelligent life--by looking a the spectral makeup of the atmosphere. Does it contain oxygen? If yes then life. Does it contain fluorocarbons? If yes then smart life.

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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby Churchill » Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:19 am

Anaxagoras wrote:Scientists can be silly sometimes, too though.

Take those gold-plated records they sent out with the Voyager probes. Did anyone stop to calculate the odds that anyone would ever find these things floating out there in deep space? You'd probably have a better chance of winning the powerball lottery 10 times in a row with just 10 tickets (number pulled out of my ass, sure, but it's only magical thinking to suppose that those probes will ever be seen by anyone other than us again.)


So you are admitting the odds are greater than zero. :tater:

A little hope, however remote, is worth the price of admission.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby Rob Lister » Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:57 am

Anaxagoras wrote:Scientists can be silly sometimes, too though.

Take those gold-plated records they sent out with the Voyager probes. Did anyone stop to calculate the odds that anyone would ever find these things floating out there in deep space? You'd probably have a better chance of winning the powerball lottery 10 times in a row with just 10 tickets (number pulled out of my ass, sure, but it's only magical thinking to suppose that those probes will ever be seen by anyone other than us again.)


And to revive this dead thread, a very related, very silly article on Fox

Aliens could conquer Earth by following 'dangerous' maps NASA 'foolishly' sent into space

Back in the optimistic early days of space exploration, everyone thought it was a great idea to offer aliens a chart telling them how to find Planet Earth.

But now the man who sent four maps into deep space fears this decision could prove to be disastrous.

Frank Drake, an American astronomer and famed alien hunter, worked with Nasa to design maps which were placed inside Pioneer 10 and 11 as well as Voyager 1 and Voyager 2 probes.

All four of these spaceships have now left the solar system and are speeding through deep space.

The plaque placed aboard the Pioneer craft shows a man and a woman alongside a basic map which plots the position of Earth compared to a distant pulsar stars, which are bright and long-lasting so could still direct aliens our way if they are found millions of years from now.

Voyager was fitted with "golden records", which can be played to reveal natural sounds and even images from Earth.

A similar pulsar map is engraved on the front of the records.

Frank Drake now fears it may have been a bad idea to send the maps into space.
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2017/08/ ... space.html

I just don't think Frank Drake is all there. It is such a stupid thing to worry about or even consider. The probes are moving at a tiny, almost insignificant fraction of our radio signals that point right fucking to us. And those won't be heard either.

Tell Frank to put down the mushrooms.

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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby Anaxagoras » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:22 pm

Yeah, but it's no more far-fetched today than it was back then. Whether you think it would be awesome if aliens found it or a problem, it doesn't really change the odds that anyone besides us might accidentally find it.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby Rob Lister » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:29 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:Yeah, but it's no more far-fetched today than it was back then. Whether you think it would be awesome if aliens found it or a problem, it doesn't really change the odds that anyone besides us might accidentally find it.


It was a stupid idea to begin with. Not because of the danger but because of the wasted cost. Okay, it made us feel all warm and squishy so maybe that was worth the cost. Well, I'm not actually sure SETI had fully surveyed the nearby stars by then so maybe we didn't know just how quiet it was out there.

Nay, it was stupid.

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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby gnome » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:38 pm

When P'neer comes and demands to meet its makers and assimilates the Earth, you'll have to change your avatar to Stephen Collins for 17 days.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby ed » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:44 pm

Harte wrote:
Anaxagoras wrote:
Harte wrote:A guy on ATS just forced me to do the calculation. A 20 gigawatt signal one light year away would reach us with the undetectable power of around 20X10^-22 watts.

IOW, no way Jose.

Try it yourself: link

Don't forget to:
1) convert light years to meters,
2) square the distance

Harte


Plus, wouldn't stuff like the nearby star also mask this signal with lots of electromagnetic noise?

Absolutely. But it could be handled by using frequencies that can stand out from the nearby star.

Everyone should stop and think about a signal strength of 20 GW. The highest powered signal we use to my knowledge is with certain high power radars which are directed but have a power density of one to five gigawatts.
Anaxagoras wrote:I forget, but isn't SETI looking for aliens that might be intentionally sending us a message? It might be hard to pick up their signals if they aren't pointing them right at us, right? Because, why do that anyway? Yeah, perhaps we've done it once or twice ourselves, but we're weird.

I guess they do it because there isn't anything else we can do at the present time and (apparently) we don't want to just sit around wondering and not trying in some way to find out.

Harte


This negative screed got me thinking. Back in pre-cambrian days, when I was in grad school, we used a thing called a Computer of Average Transients".
Image

Idea was that if a signal was lost in noise and was repeatable and could be synced, all you had to do was create intervals within which the power of the signal was averaged.

So, if you were using scalp electordes to measure an evoked visual potential, the eeg on each trial was random, noise. But the evoked response was not, it was the same each time. When you average random you get a constant, when you average the signal you get
Image
seems to me that the same sort of thing might apply with signals from ... space :shock:
Yes?
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:59 pm

Two words: Sterilize imperfection. :BigGrin3:
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby Anaxagoras » Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:52 pm

ed wrote:
Harte wrote:
Anaxagoras wrote:
Harte wrote:A guy on ATS just forced me to do the calculation. A 20 gigawatt signal one light year away would reach us with the undetectable power of around 20X10^-22 watts.

IOW, no way Jose.

Try it yourself: link

Don't forget to:
1) convert light years to meters,
2) square the distance

Harte


Plus, wouldn't stuff like the nearby star also mask this signal with lots of electromagnetic noise?

Absolutely. But it could be handled by using frequencies that can stand out from the nearby star.

Everyone should stop and think about a signal strength of 20 GW. The highest powered signal we use to my knowledge is with certain high power radars which are directed but have a power density of one to five gigawatts.
Anaxagoras wrote:I forget, but isn't SETI looking for aliens that might be intentionally sending us a message? It might be hard to pick up their signals if they aren't pointing them right at us, right? Because, why do that anyway? Yeah, perhaps we've done it once or twice ourselves, but we're weird.

I guess they do it because there isn't anything else we can do at the present time and (apparently) we don't want to just sit around wondering and not trying in some way to find out.

Harte


This negative screed got me thinking. Back in pre-cambrian days, when I was in grad school, we used a thing called a Computer of Average Transients".
Image

Idea was that if a signal was lost in noise and was repeatable and could be synced, all you had to do was create intervals within which the power of the signal was averaged.

So, if you were using scalp electordes to measure an evoked visual potential, the eeg on each trial was random, noise. But the evoked response was not, it was the same each time. When you average random you get a constant, when you average the signal you get
Image
seems to me that the same sort of thing might apply with signals from ... space :shock:
Yes?


That's obviously some sort of prop from a bad 60's sci-fi movie. You can't fool me Ed.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby ed » Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:53 pm

Sort of a palimpsest is what I'm thinking. Not quite though.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby Doctor X » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:21 am

gnome wrote:When P'neer comes and demands to meet its makers and assimilates the Earth, you'll have to change your avatar to Stephen Collins for 17 days.


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Too soon?

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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby gnome » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:16 pm

I could be missing some context here.

So probably not soon enough--remind me?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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