The aliens are silent because they're dead

We are the Borg.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby Rob Lister » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:28 pm

gnome wrote:I could be missing some context here.

So probably not soon enough--remind me?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_C ... llegations

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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby gnome » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:48 pm

Well, fuck.

Ok, use bearded McCoy instead.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby Rob Lister » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:32 pm

Here's a cute infographic of Voyager.
Spoiler:
Image


In about a dozen years the Pu battery will be useless for sending data back. Most of the instruments will be shut down within the next 5 years.

In 40,000 years it will approach Gliese 445, a red dwarf, about 18 ly from Earth. Of course by then it will long be a lump of metal indistinguishable from any other rock.

But lets worry about it nonetheless.

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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby sparks » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:35 pm

But we had to start somewhere.
You can lead them to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby Rob Lister » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:59 pm

LIvE AliaNs !!!

Distant galaxy sends out 15 high-energy radio bursts

By Robert Sanders, Media relations | August 30, 2017

Breakthrough Listen, an initiative to find signs of intelligent life in the universe, has detected 15 brief but powerful radio pulses emanating from a mysterious and repeating source – FRB 121102 – far across the universe.

Fast radio bursts are brief, bright pulses of radio emission from distant but largely unknown sources, and FRB 121102 is the only one known to repeat: more than 150 high-energy bursts have been observed coming from the object, which was identified last year as a dwarf galaxy about 3 billion light years from Earth.

http://news.berkeley.edu/2017/08/30/dis ... io-bursts/

The interesting thing about this is that the signals are not regular or periodic.

Image
A sequence of 14 of the 15 detected bursts illustrate their dispersed spectrum and extreme variability. The streaks across the colored energy plot are the bursts appearing at different times and different energies because of dispersion caused by 3 billion years of travel through intergalactic space. In the top frequency spectrum, the dispersion has been removed to show the 300 microsecond pulse spike. Capturing this diverse set of bursts was made possible by the broad bandwidth that can be processed by the Breakthrough Listen backend at the Green Bank Telescope.


If the energy density was in a range from 24 to 144 Jy us, or Jansky,
http://www.astronomerstelegram.org/?rea ... %20article.
which is too hairy for me to work with, what was the original energy from a source 3 billion lightyears distant?

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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby Rob Lister » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:28 pm

So now Bitcoin (et al) is spoiling our chances to meet ET.

Cryptocurrency Miners Are 'Limiting' the Search for Alien Life Now
Berkely's SETI project can't get its hands on the latest graphics cards, which are popular with cryptocurrency miners.

The UC Berkeley-based SETI project only relies on volunteers for a portion of its computing power, however, and has its own computing installations at several telescopes. But the project team ran into problems recently when it tried to expand its operations by adding the latest and most powerful computers to two observatories. The team discovered, Berkeley SETI Research Center chief scientist Dan Werthimer told the BBC, that it couldn’t find the key computer component it needed: graphics processing units (GPUs).

That’s probably thanks to cryptocurrency miners. The same cards that make PC games look amazing and can crunch alien radio signal data can also “mine” (or generate) digital coins like Ethereum and Zcash, so cryptocurrency miners are buying them in bulk and leaving few behind for anyone else.
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/arti ... w-gpu-seti

Too fucking bad. Perhaps SETI could use their existing CPU cycles to mine coins. At least they'd get something for their trouble.

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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby Anaxagoras » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:22 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjtOGPJ0URM

Stuff about the so-called "Great Filter"

Of course, there's a lot we really don't know simply because other stars are so far away. And because we don't know how typical our own solar system is. But, there may be a little we can infer from our own planet and our own solar system.

Of the 8 major planets and all the minor planets, moons and planetoids, only one appears to have any life at all. So, there is probably a filter for life arising at all, even very simple life. It only happens where conditions are favorable. And most planetary bodies don't have favorable conditions.

However on the one planet we know of that does have favorable conditions there are literally millions of species. But only a single species with the intelligence to create advanced technology. And it took billions of years for us to evolve. And there really is no reason to suppose that the evolution of an intelligent species such as ourselves was an inevitability given that it has only happened once so far in billions of years and millions of species. So that's another filter.

So we don't necessarily need to imagine another "Great Filter" looming in our future, although there are risks. What about the depletion of fossil fuels? Or the phosphates we use for fertilizer? Or many other possible dangers.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby Rob Lister » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:06 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:So we don't necessarily need to imagine another "Great Filter" looming in our future, although there are risks. What about the depletion of fossil fuels? Or the phosphates we use for fertilizer? Or many other possible dangers.


That was a fun video but what a party pooper! There were a lot of excluded middles but its a compelling argument. AI might be the great filter but the physics of the matter pretty much excludes interstellar travel for meatbags; we ain't going nowhere.

But where are the alien robots?

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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby gnome » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:16 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:However on the one planet we know of that does have favorable conditions there are literally millions of species. But only a single species with the intelligence to create advanced technology. And it took billions of years for us to evolve. And there really is no reason to suppose that the evolution of an intelligent species such as ourselves was an inevitability given that it has only happened once so far in billions of years and millions of species.


I think that's fallacious. The first species it happened to would become the dominant life and there would be little opportunity to occur again unless something caused our extinction. I wouldn't expect it to happen more than once.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby Anaxagoras » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:43 pm

gnome wrote:
Anaxagoras wrote:However on the one planet we know of that does have favorable conditions there are literally millions of species. But only a single species with the intelligence to create advanced technology. And it took billions of years for us to evolve. And there really is no reason to suppose that the evolution of an intelligent species such as ourselves was an inevitability given that it has only happened once so far in billions of years and millions of species.


I think that's fallacious. The first species it happened to would become the dominant life and there would be little opportunity to occur again unless something caused our extinction. I wouldn't expect it to happen more than once.


Yeah I understand your point, but do you understand mine? It took billions of years and billions of reproductive cycles to happen. I'm saying that it wasn't an inevitability. It could have been that life continued until our sun killed it all in a billion years from now without a single species like ours evolving.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby Doctor X » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:36 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:Stuff about the so-called "Great Filter"

Of course, there's a lot we really don't know simply because other stars are so far away.


That is the huge super galactic size FAIL of that video: the insurmountable distances with a number of physical barriers to crossing them:

    1. Time
    2. Resources
    3. Speed of Light: not just a good idea, it's the LAW!

it is not as if one needs to imagine some infinite source of energy to get to say 90% of the speed of light, you cannot get past it beyond "something . . . something . . . warp drive . . . worm holes" fantasies. So even with the resources and the ability to get close to the speed of light, we are talking time spaces greater than human civilization's age before you even "get" anywhere.

Let us pretend that a mere 100 light years away there is a planet where Intelligent Life arose the same time as we did. So if they invent/discover radio waves around the same time we did, we still have not received their signals or a few may make it in a few years.

Visiting it? Let us be even nicer and pick the closest known solar system a mere ~4 light years away. :hyper: As this Sobering Article notes:

Ionic Propulsion:
Currently, the slowest form of propulsion, and the most fuel-efficient, is the ion engine. A few decades ago, ionic propulsion was considered to be the subject of science fiction. However, in recent years, the technology to support ion engines has moved from theory to practice in a big way. The ESA’s SMART-1 mission for example successfully completed its mission to the Moon after taking a 13 month spiral path from the Earth.

Gravity Assist:
So, if Voyager 1 was traveling in the direction of the red dwarf Proxima Centauri at a constant velocity of 60,000 km/hr, it would take 76,000 years (or over 2,500 generations) to travel that distance. But if it could attain the record-breaking speed of Helios 2‘s close approach of the Sun – a constant speed of 240,000 km/hr – it would take 19,000 years (or over 600 generations) to travel 4.243 light years. Significantly better, but still not in the ream of practicality.

Nuculer: [Stop that.--Ed.]
But adjusted for a one-way journey to Proxima Centauri, a nuclear rocket would still take centuries to accelerate to the point where it was flying a fraction of the speed of light. It would then require several decades of travel time, followed by many more centuries of deceleration before reaching it destination. All told, were still talking about 1000 years before it reaches its destination. Good for interplanetary missions, not so good for interstellar ones.


crushes all hopes.

Forget imagined filters.

That video was bad and they should feel bad for making it.

Tentacles.

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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby Pyrrho » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:42 pm

You all do realize that it was all over the first time Slim Whitman's singing was broadcast on radio.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby shemp » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:46 pm

Doctor X wrote:
Anaxagoras wrote:Stuff about the so-called "Great Filter"

Of course, there's a lot we really don't know simply because other stars are so far away.


That is the huge super galactic size FAIL of that video: the insurmountable distances with a number of physical barriers to crossing them:

    1. Time
    2. Resources
    3. Speed of Light: not just a good idea, it's the LAW!

it is not as if one needs to imagine some infinite source of energy to get to say 90% of the speed of light, you cannot get past it beyond "something . . . something . . . warp drive . . . worm holes" fantasies. So even with the resources and the ability to get close to the speed of light, we are talking time spaces greater than human civilization's age before you even "get" anywhere.

Let us pretend that a mere 100 light years away there is a planet where Intelligent Life arose the same time as we did. So if they invent/discover radio waves around the same time we did, we still have not received their signals or a few may make it in a few years.

Visiting it? Let us be even nicer and pick the closest known solar system a mere ~4 light years away. :hyper: As this Sobering Article notes:

Ionic Propulsion:
Currently, the slowest form of propulsion, and the most fuel-efficient, is the ion engine. A few decades ago, ionic propulsion was considered to be the subject of science fiction. However, in recent years, the technology to support ion engines has moved from theory to practice in a big way. The ESA’s SMART-1 mission for example successfully completed its mission to the Moon after taking a 13 month spiral path from the Earth.

Gravity Assist:
So, if Voyager 1 was traveling in the direction of the red dwarf Proxima Centauri at a constant velocity of 60,000 km/hr, it would take 76,000 years (or over 2,500 generations) to travel that distance. But if it could attain the record-breaking speed of Helios 2‘s close approach of the Sun – a constant speed of 240,000 km/hr – it would take 19,000 years (or over 600 generations) to travel 4.243 light years. Significantly better, but still not in the ream of practicality.

Nuculer: [Stop that.--Ed.]
But adjusted for a one-way journey to Proxima Centauri, a nuclear rocket would still take centuries to accelerate to the point where it was flying a fraction of the speed of light. It would then require several decades of travel time, followed by many more centuries of deceleration before reaching it destination. All told, were still talking about 1000 years before it reaches its destination. Good for interplanetary missions, not so good for interstellar ones.


crushes all hopes.

Forget imagined filters.

That video was bad and they should feel bad for making it.

Tentacles.

--J.D.


Not a problem. Once we develop sentient robots that kill off all humans, they'll have plenty of time to go wherever they want.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby gnome » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:50 pm

Someone may need to do some actual math here, but I think there's a sort of relativistic loophole for stubborn interstellar travelers.

Let's talk about a 10,000 year journey to another star. At sufficient acceleration (and my understanding is these effects occur even with reasonable acceleration rates such as 1g), the time it takes seems shorter to the people on board. So (and I'm pulling it out of my ass here) let's say it only took 10 years from the POV of the crew. You could get out there, take a week for sightseeing and alien hookers, and then return only 20 years later by your time. However, it would be 20,000 years later Earth time when you arrived.

Have I got that right?
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:09 pm

Hey gnome!

Tau Zero by Poul Anderson. :coolspecs:
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby Rob Lister » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:27 pm

gnome wrote:Someone may need to do some actual math here, but I think there's a sort of relativistic loophole for stubborn interstellar travelers.

Let's talk about a 10,000 year journey to another star. At sufficient acceleration (and my understanding is these effects occur even with reasonable acceleration rates such as 1g), the time it takes seems shorter to the people on board. So (and I'm pulling it out of my ass here) let's say it only took 10 years from the POV of the crew. You could get out there, take a week for sightseeing and alien hookers, and then return only 20 years later by your time. However, it would be 20,000 years later Earth time when you arrived.

Have I got that right?


That's true
To achieve your 1000:1 dilation, you'll need a relative velocity 99.99% c.
Even slightly less, like 299700 km/s gets you only a 40:1 dilation. http://keisan.casio.com/exec/system/1224059993

It would [only] take you 12 months of constant acceleration at your 1 G to reach that speed. http://www.smartconversion.com/unit_cal ... lator.aspx

But ...

Somewhere around 1 month into your mission you're traveling at about 1/10th c. You're starting to notice something funny is going on. There's a funny smell. It's you! Those micrometeoroids that normally just pit the spaceship like a sandblaster at 10 k/s are now hitting you at 30,000 k/s, and of course going right through.

The moral of the story is: Meatbags ain't going nowhere. https://arxiv.org/pdf/1503.05845v1.pdf

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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby gnome » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:20 am

Well damn. Tell Amber she won't be able to quit early that night after all.

Seriously though, I just found a loophole in relativity--surely some plain Newtonian hurdle like micrometeors won't prove an insurmountable obstacle.

Thank god we invented the... whatever... that keeps those from damaging the ship. Maybe something mounted on the front that deflects them. A dish of some kind.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:45 am

As long as you're doing science fiction handwaving go for warp drives, unless time dilation is necessary part of the plot.

Ever read The Forerever War by Joe Haldeman?
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby Anaxagoras » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:15 am

Rob Lister wrote:
gnome wrote:Someone may need to do some actual math here, but I think there's a sort of relativistic loophole for stubborn interstellar travelers.

Let's talk about a 10,000 year journey to another star. At sufficient acceleration (and my understanding is these effects occur even with reasonable acceleration rates such as 1g), the time it takes seems shorter to the people on board. So (and I'm pulling it out of my ass here) let's say it only took 10 years from the POV of the crew. You could get out there, take a week for sightseeing and alien hookers, and then return only 20 years later by your time. However, it would be 20,000 years later Earth time when you arrived.

Have I got that right?


That's true
To achieve your 1000:1 dilation, you'll need a relative velocity 99.99% c.
Even slightly less, like 299700 km/s gets you only a 40:1 dilation. http://keisan.casio.com/exec/system/1224059993

It would [only] take you 12 months of constant acceleration at your 1 G to reach that speed. http://www.smartconversion.com/unit_cal ... lator.aspx

But ...

Somewhere around 1 month into your mission you're traveling at about 1/10th c. You're starting to notice something funny is going on. There's a funny smell. It's you! Those micrometeoroids that normally just pit the spaceship like a sandblaster at 10 k/s are now hitting you at 30,000 k/s, and of course going right through.

The moral of the story is: Meatbags ain't going nowhere. https://arxiv.org/pdf/1503.05845v1.pdf


I think there's also a corresponding mass increase such that if time dilation is 2:1, for example, your mass has effectively doubled, and at 40:1 your mass is 40 times heavier. (This is what I'm relying on.) Thus, the closer you approach to C, the more energy you need to get additional acceleration. I do wonder if some kind of electromagnetic field around the ship could deflect those micrometeoroids?
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: The aliens are silent because they're dead

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:44 am

Note: Within your own inertial frame of reference there is no increase in mass.
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