Spooky action achieved at record distance

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Re: Spooky action achieved at record distance

Postby Witness » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:15 pm

Haven't time to chime in right now, but I tip my hat to ceptimus' clarity of exposé. The crux lies in the Bell inequalities. Hey, it's Quantum!© :mrgreen:

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Re: Spooky action achieved at record distance

Postby xouper » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:21 pm

ceptimus wrote:You're taking the analogy too far.


OK, I'll buy that. My bad. No analogy is perfect in all details. Ideally, I should ignore the parts of the analogy that aren't part of the point you are trying to make.


ceptimus wrote:I was just saying that if it were possible to entangle two coins so that in one sense they behaved like entangled particles, then when one of them is flipped and the result recorded, the outcome of flipping the other coin is then predestined.


Now I am confused again. Are you saying the coins are flipped after they are sent on their merry way across the universe? Because that makes no sense to me at all. As I understand it, they are flipped at the moment they were created as an entangled pair, not later when someone looks at them to see which side is up. What am I missing here?

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Re: Spooky action achieved at record distance

Postby Rob Lister » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:26 pm

racist

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Re: Spooky action achieved at record distance

Postby ed » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:28 pm

This is sounding like religion.
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Re: Spooky action achieved at record distance

Postby sparks » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:42 pm

And the entanglement travels faster than light, therefore--Gawd.
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Re: Spooky action achieved at record distance

Postby ceptimus » Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:21 pm

xouper wrote:Now I am confused again. Are you saying the coins are flipped after they are sent on their merry way across the universe? Because that makes no sense to me at all. As I understand it, they are flipped at the moment they were created as an entangled pair, not later when someone looks at them to see which side is up. What am I missing here?


Lots of people make the mistake of thinking that the 'coins are pre-flipped' and carry some sort of hidden information away with them that is revealed when the measurement is taken. But that would not need the 'spooky action at a distance' and experiments have shown that real entangled particles don't work like that.

The polarization experiment is the clearest way of explaining it that I've seen. Imagine a photon is aimed at a polarizing filter - the test is then whether or not the photon manages to pass through the filter.

Now the filter can be set up at any angle. If both the observers choose the same angle for the test then the "hidden information" theory would explain what's seen. But imagine that one of the two observers sets his filter at zero degrees and the other observer sets her filter at twenty degrees. Now imagine the entangled particles are polarized at some random hidden angle (both sharing the same angle) then some of those photons would pass through observer A's filter but be blocked by observer B's. This is not what happens. Say one of the photons hits A's filter first and passes through. You can then be sure that the entangled photon will pass through B's filter. It seems that when A tests his photon with the zero-degree filter then that test either says 'yes' which then means that BOTH photons are polarized at exactly zero degrees, or 'no' which means that both are polarized at right angles to A's filter. So B can set her filter at almost any angle to A's and the results are still predestined.

It's definitely spooky and counter-intuitive. Einstein didn't believe it could happen and delighted in thinking up thought experiments that showed how ridiculous and wrong the theory must be. But many of those experiments have now been carried out for real and it seems that the universe is indeed ridiculous. There are a few tentative explanations of how it could possibly happen. One that I read suggested that the entangled pair of particles do actually remain 'close to each other' in some higher dimensions and that what we perceive as reality is actually just a projection of that higher-dimension reality into our three (four?) dimensioned universe: so it looks to us as though the pair of particles are millions of miles apart, but if we could only see in ten dimensions (or whatever) then we'd see that really they are right up close to each other! :shock:

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Re: Spooky action achieved at record distance

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:10 pm

In other words, it's not-exactly-action achieved at record distance.
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Re: Spooky action achieved at record distance

Postby xouper » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:25 am

ceptimus wrote:
xouper wrote:Now I am confused again. Are you saying the coins are flipped after they are sent on their merry way across the universe? Because that makes no sense to me at all. As I understand it, they are flipped at the moment they were created as an entangled pair, not later when someone looks at them to see which side is up. What am I missing here?


Lots of people make the mistake of thinking that the 'coins are pre-flipped' and carry some sort of hidden information away with them that is revealed when the measurement is taken. But that would not need the 'spooky action at a distance' and experiments have shown that real entangled particles don't work like that.

The polarization experiment is the clearest way of explaining it that I've seen. Imagine a photon is aimed at a polarizing filter - the test is then whether or not the photon manages to pass through the filter.

Now the filter can be set up at any angle. If both the observers choose the same angle for the test then the "hidden information" theory would explain what's seen. But imagine that one of the two observers sets his filter at zero degrees and the other observer sets her filter at twenty degrees. Now imagine the entangled particles are polarized at some random hidden angle (both sharing the same angle) then some of those photons would pass through observer A's filter but be blocked by observer B's. This is not what happens. Say one of the photons hits A's filter first and passes through. You can then be sure that the entangled photon will pass through B's filter. It seems that when A tests his photon with the zero-degree filter then that test either says 'yes' which then means that BOTH photons are polarized at exactly zero degrees, or 'no' which means that both are polarized at right angles to A's filter. So B can set her filter at almost any angle to A's and the results are still predestined.

That scenario doesn't seem to demonstrate when the particle's polarization is set.

If for example, when the entangled particles are created, if the polarization of both particles was fixed at that moment of creation, then I would expect to see the results you describe.

What am I missing here?

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Re: Spooky action achieved at record distance

Postby Doctor X » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:08 pm

There was a very good book on it I read a few years ago, but it involved math so it currently keeps at bass drum muffled along with a few people no one has missed.

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Re: Spooky action achieved at record distance

Postby xouper » Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:50 pm

Doctor X wrote:There was a very good book on it I read a few years ago, but it involved math . . .


Would you happen to remember the name of the author or the book?

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Re: Spooky action achieved at record distance

Postby Witness » Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:09 am


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Re: Spooky action achieved at record distance

Postby gnome » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:41 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote:In other words, it's not-exactly-action achieved at record distance.


And if ceptimus is right, technically not much distance either.
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Re: Spooky action achieved at record distance

Postby Witness » Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:11 am

Science News wrote:China’s quantum satellite adds two new tricks to its repertoire

A record-breaking quantum satellite has again blown away the competition, achieving two new milestones in long-distance quantum communications through space.

In June, Chinese researchers demonstrated that the satellite Micius could send entangled quantum particles to far-flung locations on Earth, their properties remaining intertwined despite being separated by more than 1,200 kilometers (SN Online: 6/15/17). Now researchers have used the satellite to teleport particles’ properties and transmit quantum encryption keys. The result, reported in two papers published online July 3 and July 4 at arXiv.org, marks the first time the two techniques have been demonstrated in space.

Details: https://www.sciencenews.org/article/china-quantum-satellite-adds-two-new-tricks-repertoire


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