Programming Morality

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Programming Morality

Postby Rob Lister » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:47 pm

A very good article (if you forgive the horrid scripting) that includes several real world variations of the Trolley Problem.

Consider this hypothetical:

It’s a bright, sunny day and you’re alone in your spanking new self-driving vehicle, sprinting along the two-lane Tunnel of Trees on M-119 high above Lake Michigan north of Harbor Springs. You’re sitting back, enjoying the view. You’re looking out through the trees, trying to get a glimpse of the crystal blue water below you, moving along at the 45-mile-an-hour speed limit.

As you approach a rise in the road, heading south, a school bus appears, driving north, one driven by a human, and it veers sharply toward you. There is no time to stop safely, and no time for you to take control of the car.

Does the car:

A. Swerve sharply into the trees, possibly killing you but possibly saving the bus and its occupants?

B. Perform a sharp evasive maneuver around the bus and into the oncoming lane, possibly saving you, but sending the bus and its driver swerving into the trees, killing her and some of the children on board?

C. Hit the bus, possibly killing you as well as the driver and kids on the bus?

In everyday driving, such no-win choices are may be exceedingly rare but, when they happen, what should a self-driving car — programmed in advance — do? Or in any situation — even a less dire one — where a moral snap judgment must be made?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/ca ... 891493001/

Unlike the Trolley Problem, which would never really occur, these situations happen hundreds of times a day across the world's highways.

And in the real world, meat bags don't have time to think, not that they really would think well if they could because they're straight-arm gripping the steering wheel and standing on the brakes. But self-driving AI's generally do have time to think and can consider all outcomes (within its programmed skill). And they never panic (though I suppose panic could be programmed in).

Last month, Sebastian Thrun, who founded Google’s self-driving car initiative, told Bloomberg that the cars will be designed to avoid accidents, but that “If it happens where there is a situation where a car couldn’t escape, it’ll go for the smaller thing.”


And what if the smaller thing is a child?

The article talks about many avenues to find the right solutions. Some even legislative. What is [probably] clear: accidents will drop by an order of magnitude once self-driving cars hit the road.

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Re: Programming Morality

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:54 pm

GOOGLE KILLED MY BABY!!!!!!!!!11!!!1

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Re: Programming Morality

Postby sparks » Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:20 pm

Then there is the real problem of assholes purposely trying to hit a self driving car just for fun... because, Fuck A Bunch Of Robots!
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Re: Programming Morality

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:13 pm

Last time I posted this comic y'all said it sucked. :evil:

Image
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Re: Programming Morality

Postby Pyrrho » Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:40 pm

It's going to bring a whole new perspective to the plunging bus thread.

Or is it a standpoint. I get the corporate jargon mixed up with the argot.
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Re: Programming Morality

Postby Doctor X » Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:46 pm

You cant.

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Re: Programming Morality

Postby sparks » Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:47 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:Last time I posted this comic y'all said it sucked. :evil:

Image


How 'bout if they both stopped before hitting the lone man?

And fuck a bunch of Tesla power hungry trucks! (Elon's going over the edge on that one, but that's a different thread)
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Re: Programming Morality

Postby Anaxagoras » Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:52 pm

I think you don't program it for super-unlikely situations, you program it to protect the occupant and assume that on average, in the long run, that will save the most lives.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: Programming Morality

Postby Pyrrho » Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:54 pm

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6095 ... -vehicles/

The Open-Source Driving Simulator That Trains Autonomous Vehicles

The most challenging events for drivers are rare, like a child running into the road. So how do you train a self-driving car to cope?
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Re: Programming Morality

Postby sparks » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:25 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:I think you don't program it for super-unlikely situations, you program it to protect the occupant and assume that on average, in the long run, that will save the most lives.


Once again, Anax overthinks the problem... :) And evasion noted!!!11Eleventy
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Re: Programming Morality

Postby Rob Lister » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:47 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:I think you don't program it for super-unlikely situations, you program it to protect the occupant and assume that on average, in the long run, that will save the most lives.


Be out for yourself and assume all others are too. I think the situation will resolve itself as more and more cars self-drive. It's those annoying middle years that are burdensome.

Lawsuits will be a little different. Experts can review every accident and say what the programming should have done differently, if anything, and award according to that. Will the maker be held responsibly?

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Re: Programming Morality

Postby sparks » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:05 pm

No.

The programmer.
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Re: Programming Morality

Postby Anaxagoras » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:29 pm

Rob Lister wrote:
Anaxagoras wrote:I think you don't program it for super-unlikely situations, you program it to protect the occupant and assume that on average, in the long run, that will save the most lives.


Be out for yourself and assume all others are too. I think the situation will resolve itself as more and more cars self-drive. It's those annoying middle years that are burdensome.

Lawsuits will be a little different. Experts can review every accident and say what the programming should have done differently, if anything, and award according to that. Will the maker be held responsibly?


Right, then make iterative improvements to the programming based on accident analysis.

I'm sure an insurance company would insure the maker. Figure out what is reasonable compensation for accident victims and set a legal upper limit to the compensation
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Re: Programming Morality

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:42 pm

Anaxagoras wrote: ...set a legal upper limit to the compensation.


Who would do that?

A bunch of once and future trial lawyers in congress?
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Re: Programming Morality

Postby Rob Lister » Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:01 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Anaxagoras wrote: ...set a legal upper limit to the compensation.


Who would do that?

A bunch of once and future trial lawyers in congress?


Just like they do it now but with politics.

Check your policy. Probably 50k limit per passenger and fuck you after that take me to court you fucking asswipe.

Like that.

But they'll pay! more!

It will work out.

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Re: Programming Morality

Postby Witness » Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:25 am

Once the cars are connected, they'll conspire to kill their passengers. :twisted:

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Re: Programming Morality

Postby gnome » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:19 am

Anaxagoras wrote:I think you don't program it for super-unlikely situations, you program it to protect the occupant and assume that on average, in the long run, that will save the most lives.


That is my take. I think that effect is magnified by the fact that the car effectively knows what will help its passengers better than it can understand more than the simplest utilitarian judgments about what it's doing to things outside the vehicle.
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Re: Programming Morality

Postby gnome » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:20 am

Rob Lister wrote:
Anaxagoras wrote:I think you don't program it for super-unlikely situations, you program it to protect the occupant and assume that on average, in the long run, that will save the most lives.


Be out for yourself and assume all others are too. I think the situation will resolve itself as more and more cars self-drive. It's those annoying middle years that are burdensome.

Lawsuits will be a little different. Experts can review every accident and say what the programming should have done differently, if anything, and award according to that. Will the maker be held responsibly?


Honestly? Accidents will be down so much that no-fault insurance will be cheaper than it is today and be able to cover larger losses, because they are rare. So most of the time I think the owners' insurance will cover it.
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