Jamal Khashoggi

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Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Anaxagoras » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:12 am

It's still not entirely clear to me if this journalist was assasinated or not, but it looks likely.

Some questions about the new Crown Prince and de facto dictator of Saudi Arabia (Mohammad bin Salman, aka "MBS"):

Is he a "reformer" or some kind of arch villain, or some combination of those things?

Why do we support Saudi Arabia again? (Is is just because they are enemies of our enemies? We don't like Iran, therefore we support Saudi Arabia because they don't like them either?)

It increasing looks as if he doesn't feel constrained by international law. And certainly not by international opinion.

Senator Rand Paul wrote this in the Atlantic:

Stop Military Aid to Saudi Arabia
The regime must be held accountable for Jamal Khashoggi.
Oct 10, 2018
Rand Paul
United States senator from Kentucky

By now you’ve seen the headlines: An American resident, a Saudi Arabian journalist who wrote for The Washington Post, has gone missing abroad and is presumed dead. Jamal Khashoggi was last seen walking into the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, and Turkish security officials believe he was killed “on the orders of the Saudi royal court,” according to The New York Times. He was a vocal critic of the lack of free speech in Saudi Arabia, which makes his sudden disappearance all the more suspicious given the Saudis’ aversion to public dissent.

These are the types of headlines that make my blood boil—because an American is missing and likely dead at the hands of Saudi Arabia, and everyone is feigning shock and bewilderment, as if we’ve never before had cause to doubt that the Saudis share America’s values.

For years, I have decried our country’s involvement in Saudi Arabia. The Saudis are a state sponsor of radical Islam, and their war on Yemen, a poor Arab country, has led to many thousands of civilian deaths.

The Saudis have provided at least 2,500 fighters to the Islamic State in Syria, making them the second-largest source of foreign fighters for the group on a per capita basis, after Tunisia.

News reports from 2013 stated that the Saudis offered more than 1,200 death-row inmates a pardon and a monthly stipend for their families to go fight the Syrian government.

In 2009, U.S. officials said Saudi Arabia was the “most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups worldwide.” And in 2014, those same officials wrote that Qatar and Saudi Arabia were “providing clandestine financial and logistic support to [the Islamic State] and other radical Sunni groups.”

So why is America selling arms to a country that has supported terror, has a poor human-rights record, and has waged a reckless war in Yemen?

As they say, follow the money. But no amount of oil business or arms deals justifies our collusion with a regime that sponsors jihadism around the world.

Furthermore, if America is not at war with Yemen—which, technically, we are not—why are we enabling Saudi Arabia to prosecute a war that has killed tens of thousands and left 8 million more “on the brink of famine,” according to The Washington Post? I’m not just talking about bombs being dropped on innocent civilians that bear the words “Made in the U.S.A.” Without American intelligence, logistics, training, and equipment, the Saudi war effort would have fallen apart long ago.

I have spoken out loudly on this for some time, and I’ve also introduced legislation to halt U.S. arms sales to Saudi Arabia. I have been deeply disappointed with those of my colleagues in Congress who don’t seem to care that Yemenis are being massacred by U.S.-backed-and-armed Saudis.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Doctor X » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:43 am

Yeah, but the new crown prince who seized power has been condemned by the Islamists as a moderate trying to moderate Islam, particularly the conservative Wahhabi, and even pull Saudi Arabia into the 20th century.





At least The Lone Fat Boy in North Korea potentially duped two skanks to rub a nerve agent into the face of his half-brother. This guy? He is Virgil Solatzo.

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Anaxagoras » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:58 am

Doctor X wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:43 am
Yeah, but the new crown prince who seized power has been condemned by the Islamists as a moderate trying to moderate Islam, particularly the conservative Wahhabi, and even pull Saudi Arabia into the 20th century.
Yeah, there are two bases of power in Saudi Arabia, the monarchy and religion. The latter is probably more dangerous than the former, but the former is not benign either. Maybe that's why Saudi Arabia (the monarchy) hates Iran so much. Because Iran used to be ruled by a monarchy and the Saudi Crown's biggest fear is some kind of revolution like that. The clerics are the only other institution with power or the potential for power there.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Doctor X » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:22 am

Well, that and it is two radically--in their minds--different Islams and Cultures. First, as a Persian once quipped, "Japanese think they are the best race." Do not call Persians "Arab." It is like calling an Englishman "Australian" or a MFY fan a "winner."

Then add the Shia/Sunni rift which makes Protestant/Catholic seem positively cordial. This is one of the many reasons why I contend that Islam is currently stuck in the "1638, Seville" stage of religious development. Wahhabi is a rather fundamentalist version of Sunni to make a complicated story short.

Due to the warped line of succession of the House d' Saud where brothers take precedence over the children since Al-Akhbar-Al-Phlegm-Saud had about 700 kids, you had an entrenched gerontocracy that made China jealous. You had King Faisal Al-Rash-id Cough at 87 with a Crown Prince Muhktar-Phlegm aged 78.

Why do we care?

They have oil.

They also tended not to invade anyone . . . much . . . at least it seemed like some other dictatorships that the regime was more interested in staying in power than Fucking Up Someone Else's Shit to an Embarrassingly Obvious Degree.

This was "embarrassingly obvious."

But.

Part of the problem is Vlad I: First of His Name

For which we blame Obama.

In the rain.

When Obama sat on his ass "wanting to be loved" by the International Community [Tm.--Ed.] and did NOT act on his "line in the sand" with Syria, Vlad I felt "fuck it, I'm taking Crimea." If Obama would not act on a Tin-Pot Weak Sand Pit that is Syria what the fuck would he do against the Soviet Union Russia?

Answer: Fuck all.

So then Vlad I orders the assassination of a critic/defector in a Real Country: England.

Now, what could England and the rest of NATO do about this?

Answer: Fuck all.

That is the practical answer.

So the new under 78 year-old Crown Prince figures since The West would not do anything about Vlad I--or even The Lone Fat Boy--what the hell will the do about him? Granted, unlike Vlad I, he basically shat in his own home. Vlad I can try as much as he wants to pretend, "No . . . they were . . . tourists! Tourists!"

These fools murdered a guy in their own fucking consulate?

UNLIKE Vlad I and even The Lone Fat Boy, Crown Prince is not secure nor does he have nuculer weapons. Still, I doubt anyone is about to "bomb Saudi Arabia," but this cannot be ignored. As I tried to explain to some long ago that Saddam had to be punished for invading Kuwait because, if not, what stops China from taking Taiwan or, as fantastical as this may seem, Russia from invading the Crimea?

Answer: Fuck all.

Now, what, practically, can be done?

What makes matters worse, just like Reza Pahlavi tried to modernize Iran . . . and . . . murder lots of people who opposed him, this Ass Clown Prince wants to drag Saudi Arabia to at least a stage where Seinfeld seems novel. The fear will be if he is kicked upstairs/downstairs/wherever there will be a far more conservative replacement who will react by trying to halt what little progress has been made.

This helps a fundamentalist whack job in Turkey. Ataturk the II can now gain something by kicking his stupid ass out of the country: the US supporting them as they squeeze Saudi Arabia. Both can pretend his release and easing of sanctions is all about them working together to investigate this "horrible crime."

Now, see, if you all agree it was Her Turn, She would have sent Saudi Arabia a Reset Button which, of course, would solve the problem.

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Anaxagoras » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:35 am

Doctor X wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:22 am
. . .
In the rain.
. . .
It never rains in Saudi Arabia though. :|
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Doctor X » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:50 am

嘘だ!

証拠たち:

Image

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Anaxagoras » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:57 am

Isn't that Florida? :notsure:
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Doctor X » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:59 am

The signs would be in Mexican.

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Anaxagoras » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:35 am

Turkey says that they have tapes to prove it:

Turkey Says It Has Lurid Tapes Showing Columnist Jamal Khashoggi’s Murder in Saudi Arabia’s Consulate in Istanbul

I guess they are effectively admitting that they were spying on the consulate.
The Turkish government has told U.S. officials it has audio and video evidence that Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi was murdered and then dismembered in the Saudi Arabian consulate in Istanbul earlier this month, the Washington Post reported Thursday. The development in the cryptic case of the regime critic’s disappearance, which had already snowballed into a full-fledged international incident, could have significant repercussions for new Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. Riyadh is already facing a gathering storm of international pressure in response to the Istanbul-based journalist’s presumed death after entering the consulate and never returning.

The Saudis have, of course, denied carrying out an international hit at a diplomatic compound in a foreign country, but haven’t offered much by way of alternative theories for what happened to Khashoggi beyond tepid assurances that he left the consulate shortly after arriving and they, too, are concerned about his wellbeing. The potential recordings, however, blow the Saudi explanations out of the water. From the Post:
The recordings show that a Saudi security team detained Khashoggi in the consulate after he walked in Oct. 2 to obtain an official document before his upcoming wedding, then killed him and dismembered his body, the officials said. The audio recording in particular provides some of the most persuasive and gruesome evidence that the Saudi team is responsible for Khashoggi’s death, the officials said. “The voice recording from inside the embassy lays out what happened to Jamal after he entered,” said one person with knowledge of the recording who, like others, spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss highly sensitive intelligence. “You can hear his voice and the voices of men speaking Arabic,” this person said. “You can hear how he was interrogated, tortured and then murdered.” A second person briefed on the recording said men could be heard beating Khashoggi.
The existence of recorded evidence also offers some explanation of why the Turkish government was quick to finger the Saudis for Khashoggi’s killing, without providing much insight into how it reached its conclusion. Officials say the Turkish government has resisted releasing the footage, the Post reports, because it would reveal how it surveils foreign diplomats in the country. It’s not clear if Turkish authorities have shared the tapes with U.S. officials or just briefed them on their contents, according to the Post.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Doctor X » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:55 am

Heh. "Don't shit where you eat."

ALL consulates are monitored. Period. It is all part of the "game."

I had read the speculation that he was drugged, dismembered, then carried out in specifically 15 pieces by this "hit team." Now I know where the idea came from.

Stupid, stupid, stupid people.

Here is the supreme irony: Trump can act as a champion for the press.

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Brick Top » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:57 am

In the words of the Virgin Mary, "come again?"
You're always gonna have problems lifting a body in one piece. Apparently the best thing to do is cut up a corpse into six pieces and pile it all together. And when you got your six pieces, you gotta get rid of them, because it's no good leaving it in the deep freeze for your mum to discover, now is it? Then I hear the best thing to do is feed them to pigs. You got to starve the pigs for a few days, then the sight of a chopped-up body will look like curry to a pisshead. You gotta shave the heads of your victims, and pull the teeth out for the sake of the piggies' digestion. You could do this afterwards, of course, but you don't want to go sievin' through pig shit, now do you? They will go through bone like butter. You need at least sixteen pigs to finish the job in one sitting, so be wary of any man who keeps a pig farm. They will go through a body that weighs 200 pounds in about eight minutes. That means that a single pig can consume two pounds of uncooked flesh every minute. Hence the expression, "as greedy as a pig."

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Anaxagoras » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:55 am

Overreacting to critism seems to be a thing with this guy.

Remember over the summer when Saudi Arabia freaked out about something someone in Canada said and had the national equivalent of a temper tantrum about it. (IIRC a minister tweeted something that offended them. A tweet. It could have been ignored and hardly anyone would have noticed.)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/nation ... -1.4855353

This is what did it:


(I'll quote the tweet)
Foreign Policy CAN
‏@CanadaFP

Canada is gravely concerned about additional arrests of civil society and women’s rights activists in #SaudiArabia, including Samar Badawi. We urge the Saudi authorities to immediately release them and all other peaceful #humanrights activists.
And the reaction:
They expelled Canada's ambassador and:
The Saudi response was swift and furious. The act of calling for an "immediate release" seems to be the language that set them off.

Horak says within six hours of the tweet he was barred from returning to the country. The Saudi ambassador to Canada was recalled, new trade stopped, and orders given to withdraw Saudi investment in Canada.

That might have been enough, but the retribution continued. A total of 8,300 Saudi post-secondary students were told to pull out of Canada. Flights to Canada by the Saudi-owned airline were cancelled.

"It was a very big surprise. I get that they were upset about the tweet, but to react the way they did, it was a serious overreaction," Horak says.

No backing down

While King Salman is still in charge in Saudi Arabia, it is Crown Prince Mohammed Bin Salman, or MBS as he is known, who seems to be the de facto leader.

He is known as someone who digs in, so backing down from this battle seems unlikely — there are no outward signs that's happening, as he and his officials continue to slam Canada. In an interview with Bloomberg last week, for example, MBS continued to insist Canada overreached.

"They have to know they have made a mistake. I believe they know that they have made a mistake, but we will see how we can get things back again."

At the UN in September, during an interview with the Council on Foreign Relations, Saudi Foreign Minister Adel Al Jubeir accused Canada of treating the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (KSA) like a banana republic. "You can talk to us about human rights anytime you want, we'd be happy to have that conversation like we do with all our allies, but lecturing us? No way. Not going to happen."
So that's this guy, MBS. He turns some mild criticism that most countries would have ignored or had some low-level diplomat issue some pablum as rebuttal, and turned it into a major international incident, affecting the lives of thousands of foreign exchange students.

So maybe we shouldn't be so surprised.
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Doctor X » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:05 am



Still:



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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by WildCat » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:31 am

The problem with Saudi Arabia is if the royal family went away what comes next would make them look like Ghandi by comparison
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Rob Lister » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:58 am

WildCat wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:31 am
The problem with Saudi Arabia is if the royal family went away what comes next would make them look like Ghandi by comparison
Iran is a perfect example of that.

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Anaxagoras » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:53 pm

I get what you're saying but I don't like it.

So we have to look the other way when he commits murder because the alternative is even worse?
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:37 pm

The prince may be "moderate" when it comes to Islam, but not when it comes to protecting his own power.

FWIW, the USA has supported all manner of dodgy regimes over the years, including Saudi Arabia back when slavery was still officially legal there. So what's new?
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Doctor X » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:44 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:53 pm
I get what you're saying but I don't like it.
Cannot choose the other world leaders.

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by Giz » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:13 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:53 pm
I get what you're saying but I don't like it.

So we have to look the other way when he commits murder because the alternative is even worse?
When the Germans bombed pearl harbor, we looked the other way about Stalin's misbehaviors.

Sometimes politics is about choosing the lesser of two evils.

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Re: Jamal Khashoggi

Post by shuize » Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:02 am

I have no trouble believing the Saudis are fucking animals (I've generally been uncomfortable with our cosying up to them), but it's also possible Khashoggi was not the martyr he's being made out to be.