@#$& Dan Rather and CBS.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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@#$& Dan Rather and CBS.

Post by gnome » Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:11 pm

Ok. I had been arguing the other side of the "forged memo" debate just to see if it would hold up, because the differences between typewriters and word processors caught my interest.

But the garbage coming out of CBS has thrown me over the line. I feel like they think we're all idiots. The memos were forged from AUTHENTIC originals? I know I'm not supposed to argue from personal incredulity but they're @#$^@ing making me do it! :x

The media is supposed to be our watchdog, or perhaps a referee to blow a whistle, if you will. The only thing worse than a ref who gives the other side a free ride, is a ref that makes obviously bad calls on your behalf.

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Post by OckhamRules » Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:25 pm

Well, I know what you mean, but I'm still taking up the "cause" here. :)

If I see an important memo in a military file, what if I copy it in my handwriting and re-type it since I can't "steal" it? Especially, if I feel the content needs to be publicized and the doc can't be removed?

The copy that I've made would be a fake, but the content would still be 100% true (though, if its Burkett, he did CBS no favors in not telling them how he got the memos, IF this is the way). And their vetting was sloppy.

I'm getting ready to "spin" the other way, though, given Rove's past efforts at disinformation campaigns. If he's behind this its really quite Machiavellian--distracting from the AP receiving numerous docs that the gov't said didn't exist...distracting from the Boston Globe's much more damning story about Bush's NG service...and shaming one of the most liberal and critical and influential TV anchormen/journalist into future silence.

It would be a very clever scheme. Hypothetically speaking.

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Post by gnome » Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:04 pm

OckhamRules wrote:Well, I know what you mean, but I'm still taking up the "cause" here. :)

If I see an important memo in a military file, what if I copy it in my handwriting and re-type it since I can't "steal" it? Especially, if I feel the content needs to be publicized and the doc can't be removed?
BUT, if you were doing so, would you try to make it look like a copy of the original, and pass it off as such?
OckhamRules wrote:The copy that I've made would be a fake, but the content would still be 100% true (though, if its Burkett, he did CBS no favors in not telling them how he got the memos, IF this is the way). And their vetting was sloppy.
The content would be true, but the document would have no credibility once it passed through your hands and was remade. Realistically, a document you created manually, from an original, is no more credible than your own verbal testimonial.
OckhamRules wrote:I'm getting ready to "spin" the other way, though, given Rove's past efforts at disinformation campaigns. If he's behind this its really quite Machiavellian--distracting from the AP receiving numerous docs that the gov't said didn't exist...distracting from the Boston Globe's much more damning story about Bush's NG service...and shaming one of the most liberal and critical and influential TV anchormen/journalist into future silence.

It would be a very clever scheme. Hypothetically speaking.
Except that CBS walked right into it, when they should have known better. If it was an intentional trap by a Rove conspiracy, it should have failed if CBS was doing its job. So, @#$& Dan Rather and CBS.

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Post by Luke T. » Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:19 pm

OckhamRules wrote:I'm getting ready to "spin" the other way, though, given Rove's past efforts at disinformation campaigns. If he's behind this its really quite Machiavellian--distracting from the AP receiving numerous docs that the gov't said didn't exist...distracting from the Boston Globe's much more damning story about Bush's NG service...and shaming one of the most liberal and critical and influential TV anchormen/journalist into future silence.

It would be a very clever scheme. Hypothetically speaking.
What would be Machiavellian would be if an anti-Bush person forged the documents and then when the documents were caught as forgeries, said it was all a Bush team disinformation trick. It's a win-win situation for the anti-Bushies, either way.
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Post by Andalyn » Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:30 pm

This just sounds so much to me like a standard woo-woo backpedal.

Their purported "evidence" gets thoroughly debunked, but they then claim that no matter the evidence, it's the "spirit" of the content of the evidence that really matters...

Not only that, but I get a small sense of the proving the negative here. The documents get debunked. We hear "yeah, okay - they are forgeries. But you can't prove what they said aren't true!".

It's apparently all about "faith". :)
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Post by OckhamRules » Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:33 pm

Andalyn,

No "faith". Facts are still facts.

Whether they've been copied or not.

No one, not even Bush*, disputes the factual content of these memos.

But..spin away!



*especially since he never answers simple, direct "Yes/No" questions about the gaps in his service--or about his refusal to take the military's physical exam, as required
Last edited by OckhamRules on Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by gnome » Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:34 pm

OckhamRules wrote:Andalyn,

Facts are still facts.

Whether they've been copied or not.

No one, not even Bush, disputes the factual content of these memos.

But..spin away!
Then we need to put these memos aside and admit they are not part of the case at all. A simple, "These are no good, our bad!" from CBS, followed by an analysis of other documents that are not disputed.

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Post by OckhamRules » Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:37 pm

gnome wrote:
OckhamRules wrote:Andalyn,

Facts are still facts.

Whether they've been copied or not.

No one, not even Bush, disputes the factual content of these memos.

But..spin away!
Then we need to put these memos aside and admit they are not part of the case at all. A simple, "These are no good, our bad!" from CBS, followed by an analysis of other documents that are not disputed.
I'd go for that.

Then they should go ahead and admit the Boston Globe's reporting was much better and proceed to report on it. :P

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Post by Andalyn » Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:51 pm

OckhamRules wrote:Andalyn,

No "faith". Facts are still facts.

Whether they've been copied or not.

No one, not even Bush*, disputes the factual content of these memos.

But..spin away!



*especially since he never answers simple, direct "Yes/No" questions about the gaps in his service--or about his refusal to take the military's physical exam, as required
What "facts" in the forgeries are "facts"?

People can attempt to construct facts to answer the legitmate questions they may have - but to latch on to these false documents and exclaim that they provide "facts" is a bit of a stretch.

The spin seems to be in the backpedal. Had the documents not been questioned, there would have been no claim that they represent an "accurate" portrayal of events. They would have stood on their own.

So, what evidence is there to suggest that Killian was pressured from above?

What evidence is there that Killian refused to rate Lt. Bush?

Really, is there evidence anywhere to bolster the claims brought forward by the fake memos? Any evidence?

The questions are legitimate. He should answer them if he hasn't. But don't let your dislike for Bush color your critical thinking skills on this. To offer up fake evidence and then suggest that they somehow represent accurate data AFTER the evidence has been debunked is laughable. Please provide the evidence supporting the claims. That is CBS should do. That they have not, and relied on this claim casts serious doubt.
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Post by Silicon » Thu Sep 16, 2004 5:00 pm

According to Killian's secretary, the information IS accurate.

Regardless of memos, we do have someone who was there at the time, coming out and saying that Bush refused a direct order.


And Bush won't say if he did or did not refuse that order. It would seem like an easy question to answer.


And when the documents first came out, the White House dutifully released them, believing they were accurate. There wasn't any reaction out of the White House with something like "There's no possible way they could be accurate, because the President adamantly denies ever disobeying any orders."

Instead they said:

"We had every reason to believe they were authentic at the time."
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases ... 915-3.html

Direct quote from Scott McClellan.

WHY did they have EVERY REASON to believe they were authentic?

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Post by OckhamRules » Thu Sep 16, 2004 5:50 pm

Andalyn wrote: What evidence is there that Killian refused to rate Lt. Bush?

Really, is there evidence anywhere to bolster the claims brought forward by the fake memos? Any evidence?


Well, you tell me. Is there an evaluation from any superior for Bush's required Alabama Guard Service?

No.

Is there any record of him fulfilling his required service in Alabama (or anyone from the 20 member group who vouches for him being there)?

No.

Is there -another- explanation given for why the evaluation of that part of his service is missing?

No.

Is there an explanation for why he refused to take his required physical exam for the military?

No.

I agree with you that thinking critically is important.....

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Post by Andalyn » Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:11 pm

OckhamRules wrote:
Andalyn wrote: What evidence is there that Killian refused to rate Lt. Bush?

Really, is there evidence anywhere to bolster the claims brought forward by the fake memos? Any evidence?


Well, you tell me. Is there an evaluation from any superior for Bush's required Alabama Guard Service?

No.

Is there any record of him fulfilling his required service in Alabama (or anyone from the 20 member group who vouches for him being there)?

No.

Is there -another- explanation given for why the evaluation of that part of his service is missing?

No.

Is there an explanation for why he refused to take his required physical exam for the military?

No.

I agree with you that thinking critically is important.....
Well, looking at it critically - I see a lot of questions that ought to be answered. Questions don't equal evidence. Actions of one can arise suspcion. Testimony of one can have meaning, but you must then weigh it versus other testimony, as well as balance it out with potential motive.

We just need more information.
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Post by Silicon » Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:32 pm

This looks like it came from a typewriter.


Image

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Post by gnome » Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:58 pm

Silicon wrote:This looks like it came from a typewriter.


Image
This one was known about... the one that got everyone talking (and that may not be authentic) said that it was not just due to the medical report, but also for failing standards.

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Post by Pyrrho » Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:05 pm

CBS has been incredibly stupid. If they didn't have the actual, original documents, they shouldn't have done the story.

Anyway, this pretty much sums up my opinions:

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindeal ... 192120.xml
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Post by Silicon » Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:00 pm

Well, well, well.... lookie here.... MORE documents to be released:
In a related development, White House press secretary Scott McClellan hinted that more documents regarding Bush's National Guard service may soon be released. Asked whether officials in the White House have seen unreleased documents, McClellan called that "a very real possibility."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... p15_2.html


...."just as soon as we can find a 1972 typewriter on ebay."



Come on, JOKING HERE!


Whattaya wanna bet they're released late on a Friday afternoon.

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Post by WildCat » Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:30 am

Silicon wrote:Well, well, well.... lookie here.... MORE documents to be released:
In a related development, White House press secretary Scott McClellan hinted that more documents regarding Bush's National Guard service may soon be released. Asked whether officials in the White House have seen unreleased documents, McClellan called that "a very real possibility."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... p15_2.html


...."just as soon as we can find a 1972 typewriter on ebay."



Come on, JOKING HERE!


Whattaya wanna bet they're released late on a Friday afternoon.
Yes, it will be the grand finale of the great Rove conspiracy. New records will be found that show Bush actually did complete his duty. John Kerry, the DNC, Dan Rather, CBS and the rest of the "Liberal Mediatm" will be completely discredited, resulting in a 10-point swing in the polls.

Pure evil genius... :lol:

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Post by Silicon » Sat Sep 18, 2004 12:34 am

Silicon wrote:Well, well, well.... lookie here.... MORE documents to be released:

...


Whattaya wanna bet they're released late on a Friday afternoon.

DING DING DING!!!!

I AM A WINNER!!!! RANDI!!!! WHERE CAN I GET MY MILLION BUCKS!??!




http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u ... etter_dc_4

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Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:56 am

OK let's assess the fallout.

CBS is totally discredited.

The business about W being AWOL, etc is total BS.

The wisdom or otherwise of W's policies *now* are still in play.

Why do the Dems not concentrate on that? Hmm?
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Post by Loon » Sat Sep 18, 2004 4:01 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote:OK let's assess the fallout.

CBS is totally discredited.

The business about W being AWOL, etc is total BS.
I'm not entirely convinced. But I'm not the person who W needs to convince.
Abdul wrote:The wisdom or otherwise of W's policies *now* are still in play.

Why do the Dems not concentrate on that? Hmm?
Because nobody is open to debate on the issue. Seems like everyone has decided. So all you have left is emotional issues and character attacks.
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