More Muslim News

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More Muslim News

Post by asthmatic camel » Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:38 pm

As the Britwatchers here may be aware, senior Tory, Baroness Warsi, had a good old moan about bigotry and Islamophobia Wednesday, which caused quite a ruckus.

Linky

I can't help wondering if she was aware that judgement was due in this quite appalling, high-profile case.
The brother of a Harry Potter star has been jailed for six months for a ''prolonged and nasty'' attack in which she was beaten and branded a ''slag'' for dating a non-Muslim.

Afshan Azad, 21, who played Padma Patil, a classmate of the teenage wizard, in the blockbuster Hollywood films based on JK Rowling's children's books, feared for her life during the three-hour ordeal, Manchester Crown Court heard.

She was punched, dragged around by her hair and strangled by her brother Ashraf Azad, 28, who threatened to kill her after he caught her talking on the phone to her Hindu boyfriend on May 21 last year, the court was told.

During the row at the family home in Longsight, Manchester, which also involved her mother and father, she was branded a ''slag'' and a ''prostitute'' and told: ''Marry a Muslim or you die!''
etc.

Are we guilty of bigotry, or justifiably concerned?

You decide.
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Re: More Muslim News

Post by Nyarlathotep » Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:56 pm

asthmatic camel wrote: Are we guilty of bigotry, or justifiably concerned?

You decide.

Depends on what you want done about it. And "what do you want done about it" is a question I can never get a straight answer to on this subject so I can only make assumptions, and those assumptions aren't pretty.
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Re: More Muslim News

Post by ed » Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:34 pm

Nyarlathotep wrote:
asthmatic camel wrote: Are we guilty of bigotry, or justifiably concerned?

You decide.

Depends on what you want done about it. And "what do you want done about it" is a question I can never get a straight answer to on this subject so I can only make assumptions, and those assumptions aren't pretty.

What I want done about it is this:

Arrest those responsible and charge them with assault, menacing, attempted murder and anything else that seems appropriate.

Try them and if they are convicted max them out.

I don't want to hear about Sharia Law or extenuating circumstances due to their presence in the western hell hole.

Pretty simple, I'd say.
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Re: More Muslim News

Post by gnome » Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:33 pm

I don't believe Sharia law in any western incarnation provides any mitigation for battery charges.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: More Muslim News

Post by ed » Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:44 pm

gnome wrote:I don't believe Sharia law in any western incarnation provides any mitigation for battery charges.
What does that mean?
One of the more controversial issues in Islam is the Quran’s authorization for husbands to beat disobedient wives. This is found in chapter 4, verse 34. Additional references on wife beating are found in Muhammad’s traditions (hadith), and biographical material (sira). Many people have criticized Islam because of this harsh sanction and many Muslims have written articles seeking to mollify or defend it.

In review of the actual teachings of the Quran, hadith, and sira, Islam is rightly criticized. This command is not only a harsh way to treat one’s wife, it portrays the degraded position of married women in Islam. It will be shown from the Quran, Hadith, Sira, and other Islamic writings that this "Islamic" wife beating is physical and painful.

Before we discuss wife beating, we must review Islam’s viewpoint of women and comprehend the position, or standing, it places her in with respect to her husband. This is fundamental in understanding the command to beat the disobedient wife. Islam views the woman as inferior to the man and as such, places her in a subservient and subordinate position in the marriage relationship. The man is allowed to discipline his wife because he is her superior and responsible for her. He has the authority to beat his wife if he feels she is being disobedient. Wife beating is merely the bad fruit of a bad theological root.

When I first began to study the topic I did not realize that an Islamic marriage is not equivalent to a Christian marriage. Its rules, roles, and requirements are different. In a Christian marriage the husband is given the role as head of the household and the wife is expected to submit to the husband’s leadership. However, she is his equal in terms of social status; she is not inferior to him. In Islam the husband is also the head of the marriage, additionally he is his wife’s manager. Women are considered to be "in-between a slave and free man". Slaves are not equal to their masters, rather they are subservient, managed, and controlled. Similarly, Muslim wives are inferior to their husbands and are managed and controlled. I am not saying that the wife is the husband’s slave, do not take this to an extreme.

Muhammad’s viewpoint of women was that they "lack self-control" and thus for their own good, and societies’ good, they must be subordinate to and managed by their husbands. Wives must obey. In an Islamic marriage when a man gives his bride a dowry he is accredited the right to manage his wife. By accepting his dowry a woman is giving her husband the right to her regulation.

Muhammad urged his followers to treat their wives well and the Quran’s chapter 4 is full of these sincere admonitions. He did not want to see them beaten without cause and he wanted good marriage relationships. However, his desires for happy marriages and kind treatment do not mitigate the authority he gave men over women or the position he ascribed to women. Wives are to be treated gently and kindly but are still under the man’s authority. If she persists in disobedience to his wishes he has the right, and the responsibility, to beat her to bring her into submission once again, and re-establish a happy marriage.

This article addresses the primary theme of Islamic wife beating and is based upon the teachings of the Quran, Hadith, Sira, and renowned Islamic scholars. Following the conclusion I have a series of appendices that discuss specific issues related to wife beating.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/wife-beating.htm

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Re: More Muslim News

Post by ed » Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:45 pm

gnome wrote:I don't believe Sharia law in any western incarnation provides any mitigation for battery charges.
This also suggests that there is a "Western" Islam. You believe that?
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Re: More Muslim News

Post by gnome » Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:40 pm

I believe there are communities of Muslims that try to follow some form of Sharia law while living in America... but they are still bound by American law. It's still murder no matter what their "laws" say. So I don't think there's any chance of mitigation.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: More Muslim News

Post by Nyarlathotep » Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:05 pm

ed wrote:
Nyarlathotep wrote:
asthmatic camel wrote: Are we guilty of bigotry, or justifiably concerned?

You decide.

Depends on what you want done about it. And "what do you want done about it" is a question I can never get a straight answer to on this subject so I can only make assumptions, and those assumptions aren't pretty.

What I want done about it is this:

Arrest those responsible and charge them with assault, menacing, attempted murder and anything else that seems appropriate.

Try them and if they are convicted max them out.

I don't want to hear about Sharia Law or extenuating circumstances due to their presence in the western hell hole.

Pretty simple, I'd say.
I missed the part where the guy didn't receive any punishment (or a lesser punishment) for his crimes because of Sharia law. In fact, I can swear the very first sentence in the quoted part of the post post was that they guy got six months in prison (from my non-lawyer perspective, about what I would expect to see for a first offense assault charge) but I must have imagained that. :roll:

His lawyer might try to CLAIM Sharia justifies the attack and that the client should thus get away with it, but lawyers can claim all sorts of things. That doesn't obligate anyone to accept the claim.

So I don't buy that you merely want incidents like this to be punished to the extent of the law, because he was, yet that still seems insufficient for you.
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Re: More Muslim News

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:23 pm

Stephen Kinzer Is a former New York Times bureau chief and now a professor at Northwestern University.

He writes in The Guardian (UK):
End human rights imperialism now

Synopsis: The peoples of the world are sick of all this "human rights" shit.



Here's the refutation, also in The Guardian .
Beware those who sneer at 'human rights imperialism'
by Sohrab Ahmari

I never heard of this author, but I'm guessing by the name that at least his ancestry is Muslim.
At the height of the crackdown against the Hungarian uprising in 1956, Albert Camus warned French leftists not to allow political "expediency any precedence over regard for truth". The western left that ignored or, worse, justified the suffocation of Budapest, Camus thundered, "is in complete decadence, a prisoner of words, caught in its own vocabulary, capable of merely stereotyped replies, constantly at a loss when faced with the truth, from which it nevertheless claimed to derive its laws".

Today – with a century of catastrophic lapses in judgment in hindsight – too many western progressives are still trapped by the same "systematic relativism" that, in Camus's time as in ours, threatens no less than the "death of intelligence".

Take historian and journalist Stephen Kinzer's recent intervention against what he calls "human rights imperialism". Restaging one of the illiberal left's favourite shibboleths, he argues that the modern human rights movement has become "the vanguard of a new form of imperialism". Human rights groups, Kinzer sneers, are "spear-carrier for the 'exceptionalist' belief that the west has a providential right to intervene wherever in the world it wishes".

...


My analysis: The same old Commie enemies of freedom are still at it.
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Re: More Muslim News

Post by asthmatic camel » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:20 pm

A few thoughts. In this case, the woman concerned presumably had connections outside the Muslim world, and was able to escape. This isn't the case for many, who have little option but to remain where they are. Essentially, they're denied the rights other British women enjoy. Another example of Islamic abuse of women is female circumcision. Made illegal here in 1985, this abhorrent practice continues to this day, (we know because hundreds of mutilated females show up at hospitals every year), yet in twenty five-years there has been not one single prosecution. Why? I'm sure you don't need me to explain why women are unwilling to press charges.

So much for incidents like this being punished to the full extent of the law.

Baroness Warsi appears to think that an exaggerated fear of terrorism accounts for "Islamophobia", but it's far from being the only cause.
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Re: More Muslim News

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:39 pm

It's not a "phobia".

Those who really believe in that shit (as distinct from "moderate Muslims" who are terrorized into acquiescence) are our enemies and intend to kill or enslave us.
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Re: More Muslim News

Post by ed » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:54 pm

Nyarlathotep wrote:
ed wrote:
Nyarlathotep wrote:
asthmatic camel wrote: Are we guilty of bigotry, or justifiably concerned?

You decide.

Depends on what you want done about it. And "what do you want done about it" is a question I can never get a straight answer to on this subject so I can only make assumptions, and those assumptions aren't pretty.

What I want done about it is this:

Arrest those responsible and charge them with assault, menacing, attempted murder and anything else that seems appropriate.

Try them and if they are convicted max them out.

I don't want to hear about Sharia Law or extenuating circumstances due to their presence in the western hell hole.

Pretty simple, I'd say.
I missed the part where the guy didn't receive any punishment (or a lesser punishment) for his crimes because of Sharia law. In fact, I can swear the very first sentence in the quoted part of the post post was that they guy got six months in prison (from my non-lawyer perspective, about what I would expect to see for a first offense assault charge) but I must have imagained that. :roll:

His lawyer might try to CLAIM Sharia justifies the attack and that the client should thus get away with it, but lawyers can claim all sorts of things. That doesn't obligate anyone to accept the claim.

So I don't buy that you merely want incidents like this to be punished to the extent of the law, because he was, yet that still seems insufficient for you.
Read what I wrote. Really, it seems that you have your mind made up before you finish.
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Re: More Muslim News

Post by gnome » Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:08 pm

asthmatic camel wrote:A few thoughts. In this case, the woman concerned presumably had connections outside the Muslim world, and was able to escape. This isn't the case for many, who have little option but to remain where they are. Essentially, they're denied the rights other British women enjoy. Another example of Islamic abuse of women is female circumcision. Made illegal here in 1985, this abhorrent practice continues to this day, (we know because hundreds of mutilated females show up at hospitals every year), yet in twenty five-years there has been not one single prosecution. Why? I'm sure you don't need me to explain why women are unwilling to press charges.

So much for incidents like this being punished to the full extent of the law.
I'm pretty sure that "to the full extent of the law" means from the prosecution side, since we're talking about what the government should be doing about it. If the victim doesn't want to cooperate, it's not really a policy issue.
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Re: More Muslim News

Post by ed » Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:23 pm

gnome wrote:
asthmatic camel wrote:A few thoughts. In this case, the woman concerned presumably had connections outside the Muslim world, and was able to escape. This isn't the case for many, who have little option but to remain where they are. Essentially, they're denied the rights other British women enjoy. Another example of Islamic abuse of women is female circumcision. Made illegal here in 1985, this abhorrent practice continues to this day, (we know because hundreds of mutilated females show up at hospitals every year), yet in twenty five-years there has been not one single prosecution. Why? I'm sure you don't need me to explain why women are unwilling to press charges.

So much for incidents like this being punished to the full extent of the law.
I'm pretty sure that "to the full extent of the law" means from the prosecution side, since we're talking about what the government should be doing about it. If the victim doesn't want to cooperate, it's not really a policy issue.
Yes it is. That situation is similar to what was going on during the civil rights era here. People wouldn't/couldn't press charges. That is where the feds stepped in. Sadly, the "fed" in the UK appear to be complicit.

It is really craven to suggest that wrongs where no one complains can be ignored.
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Re: More Muslim News

Post by gnome » Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:32 pm

ed wrote:
Yes it is. That situation is similar to what was going on during the civil rights era here. People wouldn't/couldn't press charges. That is where the feds stepped in. Sadly, the "fed" in the UK appear to be complicit.

It is really craven to suggest that wrongs where no one complains can be ignored.
Now hold on a minute. I'm suggesting that lack of victim cooperation is causing prosecution to be ineffective, not that prosecutors are ignoring cases that they could win in spite of that. Do you have evidence that it goes to that extent?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: More Muslim News

Post by Philip » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:34 am

Pat Condell had a recent video about Islamophobia, pointing out that a phobia is an irrational fear:

[youtube]6Ff3Qg6B_WY[/youtube]

I wouldn't say there is no Islamophobia like he says, but I agree that the term Islamophobia is used to dismiss criticism of Islam.
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Re: More Muslim News

Post by gnome » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:02 am

Like any political term, sometimes it is used appropriately and sometimes not.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: More Muslim News

Post by Anaxagoras » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:29 am

ed wrote:
Nyarlathotep wrote:
asthmatic camel wrote: Are we guilty of bigotry, or justifiably concerned?

You decide.

Depends on what you want done about it. And "what do you want done about it" is a question I can never get a straight answer to on this subject so I can only make assumptions, and those assumptions aren't pretty.

What I want done about it is this:

Arrest those responsible and charge them with assault, menacing, attempted murder and anything else that seems appropriate.

Try them and if they are convicted max them out.

I don't want to hear about Sharia Law or extenuating circumstances due to their presence in the western hell hole.

Pretty simple, I'd say.
That sounds about right.
Same goes for FGM. No statute of limitations on that either.
And Muslim women living in the west should be made aware of their legal rights to be protected from FGM, domestic abuse and intimidation.
They should be told that who they date and who they marry is their own individual choice, and no family member has a right to impose a choice upon them.
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Re: More Muslim News

Post by Anaxagoras » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:39 am

asthmatic camel wrote:I can't help wondering if she was aware that judgement was due in this quite appalling, high-profile case.
After reading what happened, I'm concerned that he only got six months, that her other family members aren't also in jail, and that she seems to have been cowed into pleading for leniency on his behalf.
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Re: More Muslim News

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:07 pm

As it happens, the folks in charge police of Surrey (UK) decided it was necessary to speak out against FGM.

Here is the follow up:

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