The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

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Abdul Alhazred
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:52 am

It's not a "slippery slope".

It is a deliberate strategy of getting to a goal one little step at a time.
Sometimes they are even quite open about it.
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Postby ed » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:59 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote:It's not a "slippery slope".

It is a deliberate strategy of getting to a goal one little step at a time.
Sometimes they are even quite open about it.



Handgun Control and the Brady organization certainly.
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Postby WildCat » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:43 pm

corplinx wrote:Ammo taxes won't increase prices worse than hoarding though. They have these self-fulfilling prophecies of ammo scarcity.

It's a mass-stupidity problem.

It depends where you buy it. Big box dealers like Walmart and Cabela's aren't jacking up prices, of course that's why the shelves are empty.

And as far as gun idiocy goes in Illinois you need an FOID card to buy or possess a gun. You get this card by passing a criminal background check and declare you're not mentally ill or addicted to drugs. Then you also undergo an instant background check when you buy a gun. So what's the point of the FOID card? And it's even worse in Chicago, where you need to get a Chicago gun permit, which requires... another background check! You also need to take a gun class which includes range time (with a handgun), the class costs $120-$140 depending on where you take it and day of the week. Chicago also has more idiotic gun laws, like a 12-round magazine limit. I think it's 12 rounds just to prevent people from owning Glocks and Sigs, which come with 13 round magazines. Then there's other arbitrary bullshit, for example if I remove the wooden stock from my 10/22 and replace it with this one suddenly it's an illegal "assault weapon" in Chicago, even though the function of the gun hasn't changed at all and it has no more capabilities than it did before. It's purely cosmetic, like saying a Honda Civic is suddenly a race car because you add a spoiler and racing stripes without any work at all to the engine or transmission.

Chicago also requires registration of firearms, and if you forget to renew the registration and it lapses by even one day it becomes unregisterable, I guess they think you'll sell it or something at that point. More likely it just goes underground, defeating the entire stated purpose of registration.

Of course, the gangbangers and such who commit 99% of the gun crimes in Chicago don't bother abiding by these idiotic laws at all, they're aimed solely at keeping the law-abiding from owning guns..
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Postby ed » Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:23 pm

I won't bother commenting on the new CT laws.
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Postby corplinx » Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:35 pm

WildCat wrote:
corplinx wrote:Ammo taxes won't increase prices worse than hoarding though. They have these self-fulfilling prophecies of ammo scarcity.

It's a mass-stupidity problem.

It depends where you buy it. Big box dealers like Walmart and Cabela's aren't jacking up prices, of course that's why the shelves are empty.


Apparently at local walmarts, re-sellers are lined up to buy the ammo when it comes in to turn around and sell it via message forums though. So I think the average price has in fact gone up since the scarcity issue has created an additional layer in the supply chain.

It isn't unlike what happens when a new game console gets released and the scalpers keep them bought off shelves for months.

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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Postby gnome » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:05 pm

Abdul... let's say that a country is a dictatorship. There is a faction inside that openly wants to make a socialist democracy. They propose allowing free elections as a first step. Assuming their intended end point is undesirable, does it logically follow that free elections are a bad idea?
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Postby WildCat » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:24 pm

corplinx wrote:
WildCat wrote:
corplinx wrote:Ammo taxes won't increase prices worse than hoarding though. They have these self-fulfilling prophecies of ammo scarcity.

It's a mass-stupidity problem.

It depends where you buy it. Big box dealers like Walmart and Cabela's aren't jacking up prices, of course that's why the shelves are empty.


Apparently at local walmarts, re-sellers are lined up to buy the ammo when it comes in to turn around and sell it via message forums though. So I think the average price has in fact gone up since the scarcity issue has created an additional layer in the supply chain.

It isn't unlike what happens when a new game console gets released and the scalpers keep them bought off shelves for months.

Walmarts are also limiting the amount people can buy, I really doubt there's much scalping going on at that level. It's a lot of work to make $10 from a box of .22LR.

It's the gun dealers who are buying it wholesale by the case and then jacking up the prices to sell at gunbroker.com and such.
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Postby DrMatt » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:33 pm

How much is 239Pu going for at Walmart?
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Postby WildCat » Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:24 pm

DrMatt wrote:How much is 239Pu going for at Walmart?

And now one of the resident anti-gun nuts compares ammo to nuclear weapons.

And gnome wonders why people who enjoy the shooting sports, or like to be able to defend themselves and their loved ones, are suspicious of their motives.
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Postby DrMatt » Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:57 pm

WildCat wrote:
DrMatt wrote:How much is 239Pu going for at Walmart?

And now one of the resident anti-gun nuts compares ammo to nuclear weapons.
Oh, really? who is that?
And gnome wonders why people who enjoy the shooting sports, or like to be able to defend themselves and their loved ones, are suspicious of their motives.
Which one is suspicious of which, then?
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Postby corplinx » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:04 pm

WildCat wrote:
corplinx wrote:
WildCat wrote:
corplinx wrote:Ammo taxes won't increase prices worse than hoarding though. They have these self-fulfilling prophecies of ammo scarcity.

It's a mass-stupidity problem.

It depends where you buy it. Big box dealers like Walmart and Cabela's aren't jacking up prices, of course that's why the shelves are empty.


Apparently at local walmarts, re-sellers are lined up to buy the ammo when it comes in to turn around and sell it via message forums though. So I think the average price has in fact gone up since the scarcity issue has created an additional layer in the supply chain.

It isn't unlike what happens when a new game console gets released and the scalpers keep them bought off shelves for months.

Walmarts are also limiting the amount people can buy, I really doubt there's much scalping going on at that level. It's a lot of work to make $10 from a box of .22LR.

It's the gun dealers who are buying it wholesale by the case and then jacking up the prices to sell at gunbroker.com and such.


And the response, is now the scalpers bring their family to each get a max allocation.

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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Postby DrMatt » Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:09 pm

corplinx wrote:
WildCat wrote:
corplinx wrote:
WildCat wrote:
corplinx wrote:Ammo taxes won't increase prices worse than hoarding though. They have these self-fulfilling prophecies of ammo scarcity.

It's a mass-stupidity problem.

It depends where you buy it. Big box dealers like Walmart and Cabela's aren't jacking up prices, of course that's why the shelves are empty.


Apparently at local walmarts, re-sellers are lined up to buy the ammo when it comes in to turn around and sell it via message forums though. So I think the average price has in fact gone up since the scarcity issue has created an additional layer in the supply chain.

It isn't unlike what happens when a new game console gets released and the scalpers keep them bought off shelves for months.

Walmarts are also limiting the amount people can buy, I really doubt there's much scalping going on at that level. It's a lot of work to make $10 from a box of .22LR.

It's the gun dealers who are buying it wholesale by the case and then jacking up the prices to sell at gunbroker.com and such.


And the response, is now the scalpers bring their family to each get a max allocation.

Hey, that's how democracy works. He with the most offspring gets the most bullets. Er, ballots. Well, you know.
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Postby WildCat » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:46 pm

corplinx wrote:
WildCat wrote:
corplinx wrote:
WildCat wrote:
corplinx wrote:Ammo taxes won't increase prices worse than hoarding though. They have these self-fulfilling prophecies of ammo scarcity.

It's a mass-stupidity problem.

It depends where you buy it. Big box dealers like Walmart and Cabela's aren't jacking up prices, of course that's why the shelves are empty.


Apparently at local walmarts, re-sellers are lined up to buy the ammo when it comes in to turn around and sell it via message forums though. So I think the average price has in fact gone up since the scarcity issue has created an additional layer in the supply chain.

It isn't unlike what happens when a new game console gets released and the scalpers keep them bought off shelves for months.

Walmarts are also limiting the amount people can buy, I really doubt there's much scalping going on at that level. It's a lot of work to make $10 from a box of .22LR.

It's the gun dealers who are buying it wholesale by the case and then jacking up the prices to sell at gunbroker.com and such.


And the response, is now the scalpers bring their family to each get a max allocation.

If your whole family is unemployed and able to stand in line for Walmart to open in hopes they stocked some overnight they might as well.
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Postby WildCat » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:49 pm

DrMatt wrote:
WildCat wrote:
DrMatt wrote:How much is 239Pu going for at Walmart?

And now one of the resident anti-gun nuts compares ammo to nuclear weapons.
Oh, really? who is that?

The guy who compares ammo to nuclear weapons grade plutonium.
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Postby gnome » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:08 pm

I have never said there was no reason to be suspicious of motives behind gun control measures.
I have, however, said that the fact that someone has a supicious agenda... or even if you openly know it is an undesirable agenda... does not mean that every part of it is undesirable.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Postby ed » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:10 pm

gnome wrote:I have never said there was no reason to be suspicious of motives behind gun control measures.
I have, however, said that the fact that someone has a supicious agenda... or even if you openly know it is an undesirable agenda... does not mean that every part of it is undesirable.


Absolutely. The autobahn still serves germany well.
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Postby gnome » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:18 pm

Are you trying to Godwin me into a fallacy of division?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Postby WildCat » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:20 pm

gnome wrote:I have never said there was no reason to be suspicious of motives behind gun control measures.
I have, however, said that the fact that someone has a supicious agenda... or even if you openly know it is an undesirable agenda... does not mean that every part of it is undesirable.

But when you know many of the pols want to ban guns (because they either say so or enacted/defended bans that were struck down) and then they want registration it doesn't take a psychic to know that registration makes it very easy to confiscate once they get more favorable judges on the Supreme Court.

I wouldn't care about registration if there was a new Constitutional Amendment that made it clear that no registered gun could ever be made illegal to possess, but that's highly unlikely to happen.
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Postby corplinx » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:55 pm

I think the ammo hoarding trend is just as bad as gold buggery or bitcoin fanaticism. These are behaviors acted out of fear.

Whether or not I sympathize with their underlying political opinions (gun rights), I have no sympathy for their behavior. We might ban a few guns, but there is no plan to ban ammo.

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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Postby WildCat » Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:14 am

corplinx wrote:I think the ammo hoarding trend is just as bad as gold buggery or bitcoin fanaticism. These are behaviors acted out of fear.

Whether or not I sympathize with their underlying political opinions (gun rights), I have no sympathy for their behavior. We might ban a few guns, but there is no plan to ban ammo.

You don't have to ban it to cause people to hoard it, taxing it is enough. And it's not irrational to hoard something if you think the price will be much higher in the near future.

California lawmakers consider regulating, taxing ammunition

States look to tax guns, ammo

If Guns Do Not Kill, Tax the Bullets
That link contains this gem of a quote from a dirt-ignorant anti-gun nut who is thankfully now dead:
His solution: Increase the tax on bullets. He wouldn’t raise the tax on ammunition typically used for target shooting or hunting. But he proposed exorbitant taxes on hollow-tipped bullets designed to penetrate armor and cause devastating damage.

“Ten thousand percent,” Mr. Moynihan said.

Hollow point bullets are more easily stopped by armor because they expand, and are preferred for hunting as they cause more damage and are more likely to kill the animal, as opposed to merely wounding it so it runs off to suffer and die later.

This is why people are hoarding ammo.

And it's not the gangbangers and such who are buying all the ammo, it's the law-abiding who like to shoot at the range. A friend and I went through 450 rounds last Thursday before 2pm, that's probably 20 times more than a gangbanger shoots in a lifetime.

And that range I go to is run by the Indiana DNR and costs only $4 a day, it's mostly subsidized by hunting licenses. Indiana understands that hunters who are proficient with their weapons leave far fewer wounded and suffering animals in their wake than the hunter who can't afford to keep their skills sharp. I don't think the state of Illinois even has a public range.
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