The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by gnome » Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:38 am

WildCat wrote:
gnome wrote:I have never said there was no reason to be suspicious of motives behind gun control measures.
I have, however, said that the fact that someone has a supicious agenda... or even if you openly know it is an undesirable agenda... does not mean that every part of it is undesirable.
But when you know many of the pols want to ban guns (because they either say so or enacted/defended bans that were struck down) and then they want registration it doesn't take a psychic to know that registration makes it very easy to confiscate once they get more favorable judges on the Supreme Court.

I wouldn't care about registration if there was a new Constitutional Amendment that made it clear that no registered gun could ever be made illegal to possess, but that's highly unlikely to happen.
I think that your point here is different than the one I was speaking against. You've made an argument that gun registration is undesirable because it puts gun owners at risk of future confiscation. I think that's a completely fair and non-fallacious argument. It's a little bit different than saying that generically, a firearm restriction is undesirable because its proponents will always ask for more... as if making a choice on one topic locks in the "theme" of that choice forever.
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by Anaxagoras » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:24 pm

corplinx wrote:So I'd heard it become hard to buy ammo at Wal-mart and other big box stores in certain calibers. I'd expected irrational people to buy more what with a Democrat president.

Then we heard Sarah Palin say that the government was buying up ammo to keep it away from people. This is apparently something that some hicks actually believe.

Cue me talking to someone about a month ago... Hicks hoarding ammo have created a scarcity issue that they are blaming the government for.

In addition, some hicks who realize its bullshit are buying the new ammo after Wal-mart puts it on the shelves in order to sell on gun forums to the irrational hicks (who they are happy to keep whispering about the feds are buying it all to).

So hicks are being exploited by other hicks with a line of woo and fear into buying into a self-perpetuating cycle.

The fun part is.... even if the anti-christ commie kenyan socialist grabs their guns..... ammo would still be legal.

Never fear! Jim Inhofe has a solution! Limit the amount of bullets that the government can buy:

Jim Inhofe: Federal Government Has 'Taken' All The Ammunition
Sen. Jim Inhofe (R-Okla.) thinks the federal government will stop at nothing to abridge America's Second Amendment rights. The federal government is so opposed to firearms, in fact, that it has gone on an ammunition-buying spree so that there won't be any bullets left for law-abiding Americans, Inhofe charged Monday.

"We just denied everything that this president and the vice president are trying to do," Inhofe said on Laura Ingraham's radio show Monday. "So what are they going to do if they want to, if they want to violate our Second Amendment rights? Do it with ammo."
. . .
Inhofe and Rep. Frank Lucas (R-Okla.) introduced a bill last week to fix this alleged problem. The Ammunition Management for More Obtainability (AMMO) Act of 2013 would put caps on the amount of ammunition federal agencies could buy -- a measure that could qualify as Inhofe's first-ever support of gun control.

"I don't know how [Napolitano] or anyone else can deny this is going on, all you have to do is go to any of the places in Oklahoma out where I am," Inhofe said Monday. "I went down to Texas, I tried places down there - no one has any ammo. It's supply and demand, they've taken it all up."
:roll:
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by Doctor X » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:34 pm

Whether or not he is an idiot, he is correct on this issue according to suppliers I know.

Granted gun and ammunition suppliers do not tend to be "Obama Friendly."

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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by corplinx » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:42 am

Does government buy ammo other than 9mm?

If the government was making ammo scarce, somebody in government would have squealed.

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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by ed » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:46 am

corplinx wrote:Does government buy ammo other than 9mm?

If the government was making ammo scarce, somebody in government would have squealed.
9mm, 45acp, 5.56mm (.223), 308, .30-06 maybe 38spl. .22 for practice

no one has to squeal, it is pretty much public record.
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by gnome » Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:48 am

Hmm.

It is public record that the government is placing large orders for ammo. Do we have public record of the stronger statement that this is making ammo scarce, or that this is the intended purpose?
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by ed » Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:27 am

gnome wrote:
WildCat wrote:
gnome wrote:I have never said there was no reason to be suspicious of motives behind gun control measures.
I have, however, said that the fact that someone has a supicious agenda... or even if you openly know it is an undesirable agenda... does not mean that every part of it is undesirable.
But when you know many of the pols want to ban guns (because they either say so or enacted/defended bans that were struck down) and then they want registration it doesn't take a psychic to know that registration makes it very easy to confiscate once they get more favorable judges on the Supreme Court.

I wouldn't care about registration if there was a new Constitutional Amendment that made it clear that no registered gun could ever be made illegal to possess, but that's highly unlikely to happen.
I think that your point here is different than the one I was speaking against. You've made an argument that gun registration is undesirable because it puts gun owners at risk of future confiscation. I think that's a completely fair and non-fallacious argument. It's a little bit different than saying that generically, a firearm restriction is undesirable because its proponents will always ask for more... as if making a choice on one topic locks in the "theme" of that choice forever.
I think that some restrictions are desirable. The fact that the other side will never be satisfied tends to put me in the camp of rejecting any additional controls. It is sorta like abortion to me. The other side there will not be satisfied unless it is outlawed so I am disinclined to allow their gradualism. Thing is that one cannot go on as if the opposition does not exist or that, by behaving reasonably, one is really providing benefit long term.
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by ed » Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:32 am

gnome wrote:Hmm.

It is public record that the government is placing large orders for ammo. Do we have public record of the stronger statement that this is making ammo scarce, or that this is the intended purpose?
No idea. Though manufacturers will handle government orders first, I imagine. Is the shortage an unintended consequence that is causing amazement in Washington? Dunno. Have to go personally verify that one, empirically.

I don't think that this is a conspiracy, I don't think those in the government are that smart. I would like to know why the government is spending that much though.
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by WildCat » Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:02 pm

ed wrote:I don't think that this is a conspiracy, I don't think those in the government are that smart. I would like to know why the government is spending that much though.
Do you have any evidence at all that the government is buying any more ammo than they always have?
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by ed » Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:14 pm

WildCat wrote:
ed wrote:I don't think that this is a conspiracy, I don't think those in the government are that smart. I would like to know why the government is spending that much though.
Do you have any evidence at all that the government is buying any more ammo than they always have?
What does that have to do with anything?
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by Grammatron » Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:33 pm

WildCat wrote:
ed wrote:I don't think that this is a conspiracy, I don't think those in the government are that smart. I would like to know why the government is spending that much though.
Do you have any evidence at all that the government is buying any more ammo than they always have?
It does get used up you know, if only at a firing range.

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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by Doctor X » Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:36 pm

All those Obama Drone Strikes [Tm.--Ed.] use a lot of ammo . . . to, you know, shoot Our Freedoms.

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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by Cool Hand » Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:53 pm

My takeaway is that "Department of Homeland Security" was always a frighteningly Orwellian name for a federal agency, and if any part of the story in Forbes is true, then it is much more frightening now than it was when it was created.

This is the reason for the existence of the Second Amendment. It's to ensure that the citizenry can preserve the democratic/republican process from a military coup, even a bloodless one. It's a shame the purpose and historical foundation has become so buried in partisan rhetoric and fear mongering during my lifetime. Disarming the populace and shoring up the arms of government (DHS is looking more and more like a para-military force) will be a fatal mistake to our nation as we know it, if that's what occurs.

Fear your government. It doesn't matter who is in power. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Arming the DHS like a military force is liberty gone horribly wrong.

A republic if you can keep it, indeed.

CH
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by DrMatt » Wed May 01, 2013 1:15 am

Doesn't matter whether the party in power is Microsoft or Exxon.
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by corplinx » Wed May 01, 2013 2:28 am

If the government suddenly becomes tyrannical overnight, it won't be overthrown by everyone going to Wal-mart that day.

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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed May 01, 2013 8:57 am

Dictatorship will come to the United States by democratic (sort of) election like we have now.

A majority of the people want it.
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by gnome » Wed May 01, 2013 10:57 am

I wouldn't say it's impossible, but I don't believe it will occur.

There must be a better method of vigilance than pretending that everything objectionable is a sign that the takeover will be any day now. False urgency causes as much apathy as a failure of vigilance, it seems to me. People get numb to it and tune out.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by Cool Hand » Wed May 01, 2013 1:24 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:Dictatorship will come to the United States by democratic (sort of) election like we have now.

A majority of the people want it.
True.

Liberty is lost incrementally, and once lost, each liberty is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to get back from government absent revolution. A liberty here, a liberty there, and before you know it, there's not much liberty left in a "free" country. The tragic thing is exactly what you identify. The people are willingly and happily ceding their liberties to government. Our latest prominent example is Boston's reaction to the bombings. Everyone cocooned at the urging of the government (state and local, but still government) and many persons were subject to home invasions by para-military SWAT teams and forced at gunpoint out of their homes.

People love to give up privacy and liberty for the illusion of security and protection by government. Yet, it was a private citizen that found "Bomber No. 2," not the thousands of police looking for him. No one is safer for that kind of police state presence.

The secret intelligence community (public sector, including thousands of government contractors) has grown at an alarming rate since 9/11, and hardly anyone knows anything about it. Worse, even when they learn of it, hardly anyone seems to be concerned about it. The effect of this enormous surveillance state, most of it in secret, is that the government and its contractors and their electronics are effectively spying on everyone, all the time. I suspect we are heading in the direction of eventually resembling the police state the Stasi helmed in the streets and in the lives of everyone in East Germany.

I'm not saying the government has a secret file on everyone in the US. I'm saying they have the capabilities to gather enough information on each of us very quickly, including things we did that aren't so kosher decades ago. They (collectively, acting in concert) can compile enough info on you in a week to write a multi-volume biography on you. They can shut down an entire city and essentially declare martial law without actually doing so, which I would argue effectively occurred in Boston two weeks ago.

Am I suggesting it's a monolithic black conspiracy? Hell no. But all the components are in place and have been marshaled after 9/11 so that tremendous resources, at the federal, state, and local levels can be brought to bear to capture or kill anyone, anywhere. As we know, they can sometimes target the wrong person(s), and they can and do ruin lives. See, e.g., Richard Jewell, and his life was ruined even in pre-9/11 America. Think he's the only one or will be the only one?

In the process of making Americans feel safer, aren't we killing "America" itself? The America anyone's grandkids will grow up in will not resemble the post-war America most of us grew up in, and I'm not just talking about economically or socially. They sure as hell won't be as "free" as we were, not by a long shot.

A republic, if you can keep it. We're falling down on the job of keeping it. And we are doing it happily and willingly. We're almost begging government to seize more power and authority over our lives.

Protect us. Sure. To the founding fathers, it would be plain as day that it's the fox guarding the henhouse.

CH
Last edited by Cool Hand on Wed May 01, 2013 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by Cool Hand » Wed May 01, 2013 1:26 pm

gnome wrote:I wouldn't say it's impossible, but I don't believe it will occur.

There must be a better method of vigilance than pretending that everything objectionable is a sign that the takeover will be any day now. False urgency causes as much apathy as a failure of vigilance, it seems to me. People get numb to it and tune out.
It's not a sudden takeover I fear. It's the gradual ceding of liberties. I'm not the apocalyptic survivalist here. It's happening every day, by degrees, right in front of us, and we don't even care.

CH
....life purpose is pay taxes -- pillory 12/05/13

And you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath and one day closer to death.

"Time" -- Pink Floyd

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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by hammegk » Wed May 01, 2013 1:28 pm

Armed revolt is long overdue, and likely now impossible with DHS & SWATs here there and everywhere.