The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by Cool Hand » Wed May 01, 2013 1:46 pm

hammegk wrote:Armed revolt is long overdue, and likely now impossible with DHS & SWATs here there and everywhere.
I don't know about being overdue, but as for the rest of your post, yes, and that's kind of my point. Remember Randy Weaver and Ruby Ridge?

Again, I'm not a follower of fringe groups like the Montana Militia or survivalists, OK? Regardless, seeing what happened to him and his family, despite the legitimate warrants outstanding against him at the time, leads me to the inescapable conclusion that the operation conducted against him was a horrible misuse and abuse of governmental power. It was nothing short of a mini-scale war by America on an American citizen and his family in his own home (and yard).

The government is much more frightening in law enforcement scope and in its bravado and willingness to use military tactics in domestic law enforcement functions now than it was in 1992.

CH
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by gnome » Wed May 01, 2013 10:20 pm

I wish your point of view was better heard than all the nuts out there :/

Keep at it, please.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by Evolver » Wed May 01, 2013 10:27 pm

ed wrote:I suspect that no single person has done more for the firearms industry than Barack Obama the paranoid racists that think that Obama wants to take their stuff. The AR style carbine/rifle was sort of a relatively expensive specialty arm before him. Now you can't get one or if you can you are spending ~$1000 a copy.
FTFY
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by Cool Hand » Wed May 01, 2013 11:26 pm

gnome wrote:I wish your point of view was better heard than all the nuts out there :/

Keep at it, please.
Are you talking to me? On the chance that you are, I'll write the following. If not, please feel free to ignore.

An example of the gradual ceding of liberties that we collectively seem to be happy about ceding to government that is a hot button issue to me is surveillance cameras. It bothers the hell out of me to the core, and more than that, what bothers the hell out of me is that very few persons (I can't think of one at the moment who has shared my concern) I've spoken to in person or corresponded with on message boards even care about it.

In particular, with real life friends and acquaintances, at various times for about 15 years now I have discussed the proliferation of surveillance cameras in public schools, particularly in high schools and middle schools. I think to a person, those who have engaged me on the topic, especially those who are parents with school-age children, have not acknowledged the privacy issues raised by state-sponsored video surveillance in compulsory school. My concerns have been universally met with shrugs or with puzzlement that I seem to disregard the safety of their kids. Parents seem to take it as a given that the installation and monitoring of such cameras is a good thing, as it helps them feel like their kids are safer at school.

Yeah, but what about the kids? How do they feel about them? That question seems to be irrelevant or even hostile to the parents when I pose it.

I pose it from the perspective of my memories of my own public high school. When I went to school there were no cameras or police or any kind of surveillance of kids in high school other than the principal (whom we almost never saw unless you actually went to his office) and two assistant principals, one of whom I might have seen once a week or so, usually in the cafeteria. Their security roles were exercised and felt seldom, maybe once a month or so, usually in the form of learning someone got suspended for 3 days for getting caught with a joint in the smoking court (yeah, there was an officially sanctioned area for smoking by teens in high school which today would horrify this generation of parents, despite their possibly having one in their own high schools when they were there). It's unimaginable to me what our daily activities in the hallways between classes and during breaks and lunch would have been like under the watchful eyes of cameras. Picturing actual police officers assigned to our school as is common today is absurd to me. I lament that students today live with those intrusions as the norm. I think I would prefer the anarchy of the hallways of yore, but we'll never know.

I'm also horrified by the general acceptance of and regarding as a non-issue of literally millions of surveillance cameras in the UK. Few persons seem to feel like they are intrusive, and it seems like most are in favor of them, as the cameras make them feel safer from terrorists. Orwell must be spinning in his grave.

CH
....life purpose is pay taxes -- pillory 12/05/13

And you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by corplinx » Wed May 01, 2013 11:35 pm

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfishe ... the-1970s/

Nice article on the bullet bubba bubble.
ammo buyers are like consumers queuing for gas or loading up on gold in the inflationary 1970s. They’re creating their own shortage.

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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by ed » Wed May 01, 2013 11:50 pm

Evolver wrote:
ed wrote:I suspect that no single person has done more for the firearms industry than Barack Obama the paranoid racists that think that Obama wants to take their stuff. The AR style carbine/rifle was sort of a relatively expensive specialty arm before him. Now you can't get one or if you can you are spending ~$1000 a copy.
FTFY
Racism has nothing to do with it.
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by Cool Hand » Thu May 02, 2013 12:00 am

corplinx wrote:http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfishe ... the-1970s/

Nice article on the bullet bubba bubble.
ammo buyers are like consumers queuing for gas or loading up on gold in the inflationary 1970s. They’re creating their own shortage.
He's a master of the obvious.

CH
....life purpose is pay taxes -- pillory 12/05/13

And you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath and one day closer to death.

"Time" -- Pink Floyd

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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by Cool Hand » Thu May 02, 2013 12:04 am

ed wrote:
Evolver wrote:
ed wrote:I suspect that no single person has done more for the firearms industry than Barack Obama the paranoid racists that think that Obama wants to take their stuff. The AR style carbine/rifle was sort of a relatively expensive specialty arm before him. Now you can't get one or if you can you are spending ~$1000 a copy.
FTFY
Racism has nothing to do with it.
Agreed. It's not racism. It's mostly good 'ole American distrust of government from some anti-authoritarians who are reacting to his expressed policies and pandering to the anti-gun left. It's a shame he can't use the Boston bombings in the service of anti-gun rhetoric.

CH
....life purpose is pay taxes -- pillory 12/05/13

And you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath and one day closer to death.

"Time" -- Pink Floyd

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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by Mentat » Thu May 02, 2013 12:08 am

Nothing like guns to bring out the crazies. Well, that's not entirely true, there are plenty of other things that do bring them out. Like anything in reply or reference to this post.
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by hammegk » Thu May 02, 2013 12:31 am

Mentat wrote:Nothing like guns to bring out the crazies. Well, that's not entirely true, there are plenty of other things that do bring them out. Like anything in reply or reference to this post.
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by gnome » Thu May 02, 2013 4:37 am

Cool Hand wrote:
Are you talking to me? On the chance that you are, I'll write the following. If not, please feel free to ignore.
I meant you, as in you're making a lot of sense ....sometimes my words are a little obscure. :P
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu May 02, 2013 7:26 am

Question for Ed:

How long does ammo last if unused?

(I.e., is there a "best if used before" date?)

I just read somewhere that this would be enough ammo to last DHS for over 100 years.
WASHINGTON — The Homeland Security Department wants to buy more than 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition in the next four or five years. It says it needs them — about the equivalent of five cartridges for every person in the United States — for law enforcement agents in training and on duty.

. . .

The government's explanation is less sinister. Federal solicitations to buy the ammo are known as "strategic sourcing contracts," which help the government get a low price for a big purchase, says Peggy Dixon, spokeswoman for the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glynco, Ga. The training center and others like it run by the Homeland Security Department use as many as 15 million rounds every year, mostly on shooting ranges and in training exercises.
Have I got the math right? If they use 15 million rounds per year, it would take more than 100 years to use up 1.6 billion rounds? Or is that just for one training center out of many?
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu May 02, 2013 9:15 am

The DHS are acting like doomsday preppers.

Think about that.
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by gnome » Thu May 02, 2013 10:48 am

http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/ssabullets.asp

Please note that these are not actual orders but upper limits over a time period...

Anyone know how many they are actually purchasing over time?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by Cool Hand » Thu May 02, 2013 12:00 pm

gnome wrote:http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/ssabullets.asp

Please note that these are not actual orders but upper limits over a time period...

Anyone know how many they are actually purchasing over time?
Good investigating.

As for your question, there's no way to determine that yet. The government's contracts are for an option to purchase the ammo each year for up to five years. Each department's budget is determined on an annual basis and must be approved annually. They can't buy more this year than their budget for this year allows. Next year they will have to go through the budget process again.

********************************************************Tangent*******************************

An unfortunate and all-too-common consequence of government budgeting, at all levels -- federal, state, and local -- is that typically any department's budget, and even at the small office level, is subject to being cut unless all existing supplies of consumables (like ammo) are depleted in that year (the logic being that if you didn't need that much this year, then you won't need as much next year). This tends to lead to an enormous amount of waste, usually as the fiscal year-end approaches. I saw this in my office while I was in the US Army, and my immediate supervisor, a major, was even explicit about it each year. With about two months left in the fiscal year, he would come around to each person in the office and remind us that we had to use all our office supplies by September 30, or else our budget would be cut. We found a way to use them. I don't think this behavior is atypical. I saw the same thing in various offices when I worked for local government too.

I would count on most rounds of ammo purchased each year being used in that budget year. They are not going to stockpile rounds like chemical weapons got stockpiled by the US Army for decades. They are going to use them on the ranges.

One has to wonder why DHS needs to exist at all, and even if you accept its necessity, why it needs to be so large. The US is different from most European and Asian and African countries when it comes to national defense. It is separated from nearly any potential state threat by an entire ocean on each side. The most likely threats we face will come from inside the US and can be handled by state and local agencies in conjunction with federal oversight by the FBI and ATF and a handful or two of similar agencies, none of which have the huge, overreaching scope that DHS has. Again, law enforcement didn't find Dzhokhar Tsarnaev after the shootout with him and his brother; a private homeowner citizen did, despite the thousands of officers in the streets looking for him.

CH
....life purpose is pay taxes -- pillory 12/05/13

And you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath and one day closer to death.

"Time" -- Pink Floyd

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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by ed » Thu May 02, 2013 12:12 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:Question for Ed:

How long does ammo last if unused?

(I.e., is there a "best if used before" date?)

I just read somewhere that this would be enough ammo to last DHS for over 100 years.
WASHINGTON — The Homeland Security Department wants to buy more than 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition in the next four or five years. It says it needs them — about the equivalent of five cartridges for every person in the United States — for law enforcement agents in training and on duty.

. . .

The government's explanation is less sinister. Federal solicitations to buy the ammo are known as "strategic sourcing contracts," which help the government get a low price for a big purchase, says Peggy Dixon, spokeswoman for the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glynco, Ga. The training center and others like it run by the Homeland Security Department use as many as 15 million rounds every year, mostly on shooting ranges and in training exercises.
Have I got the math right? If they use 15 million rounds per year, it would take more than 100 years to use up 1.6 billion rounds? Or is that just for one training center out of many?
I have seen 1.65" ammunition loaded in the fourth quarter of the 1800's fire with almost 100% reliability. I have shot WW2 vintage ammo with no misfires. I think that, if properly stored (ie not exposed to the elements) the shelf life is unlimited for all practical purposes. OTOH governments are profligate by their nature and probably have "official" expiration dates. At that point, Diane Feinstein notwithstanding, the ammunition will be sold off. Probably offshore and then back here. That will drive prices down and the rumor will start that the government is dumping ammo to put the ammunition companies out of business. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by ed » Thu May 02, 2013 12:24 pm

Here is a flake of propellent from a Hotchkiss round of ca. 1880

Image

its a movie, click on it.
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by Cool Hand » Thu May 02, 2013 12:26 pm

gnome wrote:
Cool Hand wrote:
Are you talking to me? On the chance that you are, I'll write the following. If not, please feel free to ignore.
I meant you, as in you're making a lot of sense ....sometimes my words are a little obscure. :P
Thanks, gnome. I understood what you meant, but I wasn't sure to whom you were directing your comments. As it immediately followed my post, I assumed you meant me. Thanks for clarifying it.

CH
....life purpose is pay taxes -- pillory 12/05/13

And you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath and one day closer to death.

"Time" -- Pink Floyd

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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by WildCat » Thu May 02, 2013 12:38 pm

ed wrote:
WildCat wrote:
ed wrote:I don't think that this is a conspiracy, I don't think those in the government are that smart. I would like to know why the government is spending that much though.
Do you have any evidence at all that the government is buying any more ammo than they always have?
What does that have to do with anything?
Isn't the claim that the government is buying up all the ammo? What did you mean by "I would like to know why the government is spending that much"? Is what they're spending out of the ordinary? Surely you realize that the various armed federal agents have to fire their weapons periodically at a range to keep their skills sharp?
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Re: The Hicks are Hoarding Ammo

Post by WildCat » Thu May 02, 2013 12:43 pm

Cool Hand wrote:I don't know about being overdue, but as for the rest of your post, yes, and that's kind of my point. Remember Randy Weaver and Ruby Ridge?
I guess it sounds more dramatic if you use a recent example, you could just as well have gone back to the shooting of Bonnie and Clyde or Jesse James. But that wouldn't support your spin that this is somehow a disturbing new development.
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