OK... The Death Penalty...

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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Grammatron
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Postby Grammatron » Tue Dec 28, 2004 2:46 am

To add to what Doc is saying.

"The difference is intent--did the US intentionally target civiilians--cute orphans with lisps, pregnant women, et cetera?"

It's not just intent, it's also what we do afterwords about those deaths. We investigate and if it was intentional punish those responsible and try to make sure it doesn't happen again.
pillory wrote:jokes aren't funny....seriously thinking......

seriously thinking might be funny....but it's not joke

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Postby Bearguin » Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:00 pm

That was a fun read.

Until such time as we can have absolute certainty, I oppose the DP.

If we could have 100% certainty, I would support the DP for particularly heinous murders. That would be clearly defined and would focus on multiple murders or murders involving torture, or eating victims etc. And only when 100% certain. And, despite what CSI might teach us, I don't believe DNA gives us that 100%.

In Vancouver, there is a particularly lengthy trial going on right now that will continue for years. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 dead prostitues leading to ~20 murder charges with more coming as the remains are found at the killers farm. This is a case that is not going to have a questionable outcome. It is being very carfeully constructed and has taken years to get to this point. This is an example where the DP could be used (but I don't support it as I don't feel we can truly have absolute certainty).

As others have said, I'd rather this guy went free than 1 innocent man put to death.

David Milgaard is the classic example of an innocent being convicted. He was found guitly of the rape and murder of a woman in Sask. some years ago. DNA evidence exonerated him and the story the resulted was basically one of DM being framed by the police with the aid of the prosecution. Even had DNA work been possible at the time, there is a strong liklihood the framing would still have worked (DNA evidence tainted or lost). Had we had the DP, he would have been executed.

As to the "cost" of DP vs LWOP, I'm not so concerned about it EXCEPT when held up as an argument by the DP proponents. It's interesting to hear it argued that LWOP is cheaper then DP.

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Re: OK... The Death Penalty...

Postby Luke T. » Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:15 pm

RCC wrote:Where it gets weird is when the crime involved involves the purposeful taking of a life. That's when the value of life becomes a constant on both sides of the equation and this particular variable drops out of consideration except in one respect, that it still affects the idea of risk of mistake. It makes that risk more significant.


And when there is no risk of a mistake? What then? That's why I gave the example of a murderer with multiple witnesses who freely admits to the crime, quack, quack, quack...

What then?

It is a moral question. Period.
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Re: OK... The Death Penalty...

Postby RCC » Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:02 pm

Luke T. wrote:
RCC wrote:Where it gets weird is when the crime involved involves the purposeful taking of a life. That's when the value of life becomes a constant on both sides of the equation and this particular variable drops out of consideration except in one respect, that it still affects the idea of risk of mistake. It makes that risk more significant.


And when there is no risk of a mistake? What then? That's why I gave the example of a murderer with multiple witnesses who freely admits to the crime, quack, quack, quack...

What you suggest hardly has no risk of mistake.

The above happens all the time, some guy after a 20 hour interregation after he "knowingly" waived his right to counsel "freely admits" that he is guilty.

Then the eyewitnesses say, yep, thats him, based on a legal but very possibly tainted identification. Intital eyewitness ID's are a tricky business and are generally not double blind. Sometimes they just point at the guy next to the lawyer in court and that is it....

Physical evidence can be faked, eyewitnesses can often be mistaken and past that could be bribed or just lie.

That leaves the accused. He can be badgered, threatened, or could be lying for who knows what crazy reason be it organic mental defect or just a burning desire to be a martyr...

So, I would suggest that the best way to know is when an accused maintains his guilt all the way to the execution, and that isn't really foolproof.

That is a moral question, but I'd think it is more of one about suicide than about capitial punishment...

There is no such thing as zero risk. Yes, there may be cases where it appears that the evidence is beyond any and all doubt, but as long as it is humans making that determination and collecting the evidence, there is risk of mistake (although at some point fraud becomes the primary concern).

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Postby Bearguin » Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:18 pm

Slightly OT.

What would you say if a convicted murderer WANTS the DP? They've reasoned that LWOP is not for them. They admit to the crime in such a way that there is no doubt and they Want DP?

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Postby RCC » Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:28 pm

Bearguin wrote:Slightly OT.

What would you say if a convicted murderer WANTS the DP? They've reasoned that LWOP is not for them. They admit to the crime in such a way that there is no doubt and they Want DP?


Again, I don't think "no" doubt is really possible, but that doesn't change anything about my stance...


I think that is a question more about assisted suicide and whether a person has the right to make a voluntary and knowing decision to kill themselves, with the added dimension that assuming one does not wholly reject the concept of assisted suicide type "right to die" does an incarcerated person still have that right?

Given suitable controlls, such as mental illness screenings, I would at first impression tend to support such a choice, but I tend towards letting people have that option anyway.

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Postby Luke T. » Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:52 pm

Bearguin wrote:Slightly OT.

What would you say if a convicted murderer WANTS the DP? They've reasoned that LWOP is not for them. They admit to the crime in such a way that there is no doubt and they Want DP?


Gary Gilmore.
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Postby RCC » Wed Dec 29, 2004 4:46 am

Luke T. wrote:
Bearguin wrote:Slightly OT.

What would you say if a convicted murderer WANTS the DP? They've reasoned that LWOP is not for them. They admit to the crime in such a way that there is no doubt and they Want DP?


Gary Gilmore.


That was a decent book...

There have been a number of "volunteers."

Here is a handy searchable database, where "volunteer" is a searchable factor. It appears 2 of the 10 people executed in California in the modern era were volunteers, as were 3 of the 4 in Washington....

Weird, something like 113 of the people executed in the US in the modern era (1978 to present) are "volunteers" that waived all or most of their appeals...

Consider that there have been 944 executions to date, that makes over 10% of the people executed were volunteers of some stripe..


http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions.php

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Re: OK... The Death Penalty...

Postby V.2 » Wed Dec 29, 2004 8:43 pm

Loon wrote:
V.2 wrote:So, even though I'm harmonious with the OP, I'm not prepared to stake out a position. I simply wanted to offer some (blatantly relevant) facts for public consideration that support the OP to a debatable extent that is minimally greater than zero.


So my question then is "Why is this data relevant?"

For the simple reason that we're discussing human evolution, and this data pertains to the behavioral characteristic being discussed. That is, it relates to the topic at hand.

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Re: OK... The Death Penalty...

Postby Rob Lister » Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:01 pm

While we're on the subject

If new protocols are successfully developed and the change isn't blocked by court challenges, one of Oklahoma's 49 condemned inmates will soon become the first person in the US legally executed with nitrogen gas. The state—which started exploring the use of the inert gas after a botched lethal injection in 2014 halted executions—says it has made nitrogen inhalation its primary method of execution and will be using the gas when executions resume, the BBC reports. State Attorney General Mike Hunter announced the change Wednesday, saying nitrogen is easy to obtain, causes a painless death, and "requires no complex medical procedures." No other state uses the method.
http://www.newser.com/story/256595/okla ... tions.html

I like the idea. Still, I think helium would be a better option, for the obvious reasons.

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Re: OK... The Death Penalty...

Postby Anaxagoras » Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:11 pm

Is it really painless? I'm trying to imagine what it would feel like. I'm imagining that you would start to get light-headed, and within a couple minutes you would faint. And that would be it as far as your conscious mind is aware. Much easier than drowning in water I'm sure, or suffocating in CO2. But would there be a moment of panic or suffering? I did try NO when I was a young lad. Would N2 feel similar to NO?
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Re: OK... The Death Penalty...

Postby Rob Lister » Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:20 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:Is it really painless? I'm trying to imagine what it would feel like. I'm imagining that you would start to get light-headed, and within a couple minutes you would faint. And that would be it as far as your conscious mind is aware. Much easier than drowning in water I'm sure, or suffocating in CO2. But would there be a moment of panic or suffering? I did try NO when I was a young lad. Would N2 feel similar to NO?


Maybe identically, re: nitrogen narcosis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_narcosis
Some divers love it!

But even if there's some pain or panic, it's bound to hurt less that electrocution. I would certainly opt for N2 over Cyanide gas. Maybe not over sodium pentothal. Still, helium would be the most funniester.

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Re: OK... The Death Penalty...

Postby shuize » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:10 pm

Rob Lister wrote:While we're on the subject...

Are you sure you've had enough time to think about your response?

Ha. Ha. That has to be the longest gap I've ever seen. My daughter was born just a few days before the post prior to yours. She's now a teenager.

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Re: OK... The Death Penalty...

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:41 pm

It's been touted as a painless suicide method by the sort of people who tout alleged painless suicide methods.
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Re: OK... The Death Penalty...

Postby gnome » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:43 pm

Cue MASH theme?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: OK... The Death Penalty...

Postby Skeeve » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:42 pm

gnome wrote:Cue MASH theme?

Okay...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVBATYWFKp8
Then Skank Of America could start in...

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Re: OK... The Death Penalty...

Postby shuize » Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:16 am

Rob Lister wrote:While we're on the subject

I like the idea. Still, I think helium would be a better option, for the obvious reasons.

I don't think there has been sufficient appreciation for how long Rob took in composing this response. As I wrote above, my teenage daughter was born just a few days before the post above his ...


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