civil forfiture

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Skeeve
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Re: civil forfiture

Post by Skeeve » Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:15 am

corplinx wrote:Well, at the time the RICO stuff was supposed to be used to target mobsters/etc.

If you opposed it you were making a slippery slope fallacy.

This goes to show the difference between a slippery slope fallacy and a slippery slope argument.
And if you voted against it you would probably be seen as "soft on crime" or something like that....
So you are leaning towards the "unintended consequences of forfeiture?
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Re: civil forfiture

Post by Witness » Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:06 am

So you have highwaymen in uniform? How quaint. :BigGrin3:

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Re: civil forfiture

Post by Skeeve » Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:06 am

Witness wrote:So you have highwaymen in uniform? How quaint. :BigGrin3:
Some highwaymen in uniform, to be sure...
and a spineless president chief executive who won't do anything 'executive' about it...
Once in a while the courts help out: Ninth Circuit Strikes a Blow Against Civil Forfeiture Abuse
However even this article admits...
...
At this point, it seems that the only Americans who are not outraged by the abuse of civil forfeiture are those who are unaware of it and those who stand to gain from it. Ultimately, protecting innocent property owners from overreaching law enforcement requires the abolition of civil forfeiture altogether. Until that occurs, judicial engagement is essential to ensuring innocent property owners get the legal assistance they need to force the government to play by the rules and give back what is rightfully theirs.
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Re: civil forfiture

Post by Skeeve » Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:02 pm

least we forget: 13 years later, man’s war with U.S. over ‘shoebox’ cash rages on
Nicholas Marrocco says he kept hundreds of thousands of dollars in a shoebox, in his clothing and even in a bowl in his home in west suburban Wood Dale.

He says he’d messed up his credit in college and couldn’t get a bank account, so he squirreled away the money he’d earned at a pizza joint.

But Marrocco says he lost his life savings on Dec. 6, 2002, when federal drug agents at Union Station in Chicago seized more than $101,000 from a friend he entrusted with the money in their hunt for a restaurant venture on the West Coast.

Federal authorities say they suspected Marrocco and the friend were in the narcotics business.

More than 13 years later, Marrocco — who insists he and his pal weren’t drug dealers — is still fighting to get his money back. He points out they weren’t charged with a crime, and no drugs were ever recovered.
...
“This was a drugless case,” Komie says. “It’s the problem with this country’s forfeiture laws. Nobody can compete with the government. The bottom line is that innocent people get caught up in the system.”

He said most cases involve far less money than Marrocco’s and those people tend to settle with the government, typically getting back only half of what was taken.

A spokesman for the U.S. attorney in Chicago declined to comment on the matter.
quell surprise..
In testimony before Congress, the Justice Department has defended such cases, saying they “enable the government to recover property when criminal prosecution of the possessor of the property may not be appropriate or feasible.”

Last year, the U.S. attorney’s office in Chicago collected more than $19 million in asset forfeitures. The Justice and Treasury departments raked in more than $4.5 billion nationally in 2014.
.To be continued or you could just read it, here is this.
http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/app ... 02-25.html
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Re: civil forfiture

Post by WildCat » Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:59 pm

I'd love to hear how one saves hundreds of thousands of dollars working at a pizza joint over just 10 years.
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Re: civil forfiture

Post by Giz » Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:12 pm

WildCat wrote:I'd love to hear how one saves hundreds of thousands of dollars working at a pizza joint over just 10 years.
It sure sounds shady, but shouldn't the government have to prove it's shady? Or at least discover some contraband in order to make the seizure?

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Re: civil forfiture

Post by Rob Lister » Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:47 pm

WildCat wrote:I'd love to hear how one saves hundreds of thousands of dollars working at a pizza joint over just 10 years.
10 grand a year. That's one-half of one part time employee. Probably taken as cash sales under the table. Honest man just trying to avoid some taxes.

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Re: civil forfiture

Post by Skeeve » Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:35 pm

Witness wrote:So you have highwaymen in uniform? How quaint. :BigGrin3:
One might say highwaymen in uniform, and suits....
...
Last year, the U.S. attorney’s office in Chicago collected more than $19 million in asset forfeitures. The Justice and Treasury departments raked in more than $4.5 billion nationally in 2014.
link
However, I suppose some of that was from real 'drug kingpins'....
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Re: civil forfiture

Post by Anaxagoras » Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:31 pm

WildCat wrote:I'd love to hear how one saves hundreds of thousands of dollars working at a pizza joint over just 10 years.
I agree. Guilty until proven innocent!
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: civil forfiture

Post by Skeeve » Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:58 am

Rob Lister wrote:
WildCat wrote:I'd love to hear how one saves hundreds of thousands of dollars working at a pizza joint over just 10 years.
10 grand a year. That's one-half of one part time employee. Probably taken as cash sales under the table. Honest man just trying to avoid some taxes.
Right!
He was avoiding taxes for over a decade?

If he were cheating on taxes, I suspect they would have found that out.

If they found that was the case, don't you think they would have charged him?
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Re: civil forfiture

Post by Skeeve » Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:19 am

Continued...
...
Marrocco says the government’s asset forfeiture program needs to be reined in.

“They are saying if the dog alerts on anything, it’s a substantial connection to narcotics,” he says. “These guys could walk around with dogs and seize currency everywhere.”
Not so far fetched, considering the idea of Contaminated currency.
Most banknotes have traces of cocaine on them; this has been confirmed by studies done in several countries.[1] In 1994, the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals determined that in Los Angeles, out of every four banknotes, on average more than three are tainted by cocaine or another illicit drug.[2][3]
Additionally, paper money in other parts of the world show a similar drug contamination
...
The discovery that cocaine is so prevalent in U.S. banknotes has a legal application that reactions by drug-sniffing dogs is not immediately cause for arrest of persons or confiscation of banknotes.
So you don't believe wikipedia?
Fine, how about snopes: http://www.snopes.com/business/money/cocaine.asp
Claim: A large percentage of U.S. currency bears traces of cocaine.
TRUE
...
When a cocaine-contaminated bill is processed through a sorting or counting machine, traces of the drug are easily passed to other bills in the same batch. ATMs serve to spread tiny amounts of cocaine to nearly all the currency they distribute, as do the counting machines used in banks and casinos.

How widespread is the contamination? No one appears to have the definitive answer, as every study comes up with a different percentage. (For simplicity's sake, we'll say "four of five" throughout this article because that's the uworst-case scenario, and the figure is representative of the results of some studies.)
So, the fuckers "highwaymen in uniform" bring around a drug-sniffing dog, and the rest is history, years of it!
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Re: civil forfiture

Post by Rob Lister » Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:07 am

Skeeve wrote:
Rob Lister wrote:
WildCat wrote:I'd love to hear how one saves hundreds of thousands of dollars working at a pizza joint over just 10 years.
10 grand a year. That's one-half of one part time employee. Probably taken as cash sales under the table. Honest man just trying to avoid some taxes.
Right!
He was avoiding taxes for over a decade?
I was just being snide. relax. But sure, why not? That's how its done.

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Re: civil forfiture

Post by WildCat » Tue Apr 19, 2016 11:56 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
WildCat wrote:I'd love to hear how one saves hundreds of thousands of dollars working at a pizza joint over just 10 years.
I agree. Guilty until proven innocent!
I'm not saying that. But perhaps the IRS should look into his tax situation?

And t doesn't have to be from drugs, perhaps he had a gambling operation. But I really doubt he made that at a near-minimum wage job at at a pizza parlor. This is a lot different from seizures from people who had the means to have the money they had, not exactly a poster boy here.
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Re: civil forfiture

Post by Skeeve » Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:20 pm

WildCat wrote:
Anaxagoras wrote:
WildCat wrote:I'd love to hear how one saves hundreds of thousands of dollars working at a pizza joint over just 10 years.
I agree. Guilty until proven innocent!
I'm not saying that. But perhaps the IRS should look into his tax situation?

And t doesn't have to be from drugs, perhaps he had a gambling operation. But I really doubt he made that at a near-minimum wage job at at a pizza parlor. This is a lot different from seizures from people who had the means to have the money they had, not exactly a poster boy here.
With this going on now for 13 years, you think the government has not looked into his taxes?
Seriously?
:shock:
I can't think of a better way to "make the problem go away" (from the Governments perspective) than to nail this guy for Income tax evasion.
After all that IS how they finally got Al Capone.
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Re: civil forfiture

Post by Anaxagoras » Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:27 pm

Well, whether he's a poster boy or not, there's a principle at stake here: is the onus on him to prove his innocence or on the government to prove his guilt? There ought to be some sort of time limit at least. If they can't prove it or at least get an indictment by a date certain, they should have to give it back. This bullshit of holding it indefinitely needs to end. Frankly I don't even care if he is guilty at this point. Due process. It's in the constitution.
no person shall be “deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law.”
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: civil forfiture

Post by Skeeve » Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:49 pm

Hold on to your wallets folks: The feds have resumed a controversial program that lets cops take stuff and keep it
The Justice Department has announced that it is resuming a controversial practice that allows local police departments to funnel a large portion of assets seized from citizens into their own coffers under federal law.

The "Equitable Sharing Program" gives police the option of prosecuting some asset forfeiture cases under federal instead of state law, particularly in instances where local law enforcement officers have a relationship with federal authorities as part of a joint task force. Federal forfeiture policies are more permissive than many state policies, allowing police to keep up to 80 percent of assets they seize.
yep, up to 80% is just some of it...
The Justice Department had suspended payments under this program in December, due to budget cuts included in last year's spending bill.
Oh and did law enforcement agencies squeal like stuck pigs complain when that happened.
The Justice Department just shut down a huge asset forfeiture program
...
Some law enforcement groups are less than happy with the change. The International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP) said in a statement that "this decision is detrimental to state, local, and tribal law enforcement agencies and the communities they serve."
...
Asset forfeiture is a contentious practice that lets police seize and keep cash and property from people who are never convicted of wrongdoing — and in many cases, never charged. Studies have found that use of the practice has exploded in recent years, prompting concern that, in some cases, police are motivated more by profit and less by justice.
YA THINK?
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Re: civil forfiture

Post by Doctor X » Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:58 pm

They argue that he has "due process" but we just do not like the process.

Not arguing for the Feds, it just is what it is.

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Re: civil forfiture

Post by Skeeve » Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:14 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:Well, whether he's a poster boy or not, there's a principle at stake here: is the onus on him to prove his innocence or on the government to prove his guilt? There ought to be some sort of time limit at least. If they can't prove it or at least get an indictment by a date certain, they should have to give it back. This bullshit of holding it indefinitely needs to end. Frankly I don't even care if he is guilty at this point. Due process. It's in the constitution.
no person shall be “deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law.”
I like the way this guy puts it: Time For Civil Asset Forfeiture Laws To Meet The Same Fate As Jim Crow
One of the greatest political philosophers, Frederic Bastiat, wrote that the law should exist to protect life, liberty, and property, but unfortunately is often perverted into a means of “legal plunder.” In other words, the law is used to legitimize the use of force to deprive people of their wealth.

A recent Washington Post article Stop and Seize shines a light on actions by police that perfectly exemplify the sort of abuse Monsieur Bastiat warned about. In it, readers learn how police forces across the country exploit civil asset forfeiture laws to deprive hapless, innocent people of cash and other property.

What civil asset forfeiture amounts to is seizing property from someone on suspicion that it was in some way connected with a crime. The individual need not ever be convicted or even charged, but won’t get the property back without going through legal procedures which place the burden of proving innocence on him. Just to cite one of many cases given in the Post’s story, consider the plight of Mandrel Stuart,
“a 35-year old African American owner of a small barbecue restaurant in Staunton, VA was stunned when police took $17,550 from him during a stop in 2012 for a minor traffic infraction on I-66 in Fairfax. He rejected a settlement with the government for half of his money and demanded a jury trial. He eventually got his money back, but lost his business because he didn’t have the cash to pay his overhead.”
...
Officials say that civil asset forfeitures help them fight crime and the drug war in particular. Whether or not that is true is beside the point when innocent people are deprived of property without due process of law. Those who enforce the law must be constrained by the rule of law.

But are the seizures under civil asset forfeiture laws a violation of due process? That was put before the Supreme Court in the 1996 case Bennis v. Michigan. That case arose when John Bennis was arrested for a tryst with a prostitute in a car that was jointly owned with his wife, Tina. Contending that the car was “guilty” too, the police seized it. Was Tina Bennis entitled to get her car back, or had the state justly deprived of her property?

By 5-4, the Court held that the seizure was not unconstitutional; that taking away Tina’s right to the vehicle did not violate her rights under the 5th and 14th Amendments. Chief Justice Rehnquist’s majority opinion rested on the claimed fact that at the time the Constitution was adopted, civil asset forfeiture laws were in existence, and therefore they must not be permissible today. Justices Stevens, Kennedy, Breyer, and Souter dissented, arguing that the majority’s history was off point and the palpable injustice of taking Mrs. Bennis’ car from her because her husband had used it in his misdemeanor was constitutionally intolerable.
Oh there is SO much to rant about on this subject....
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Re: civil forfiture

Post by Witness » Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:06 pm

Image

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Re: civil forfiture

Post by Skeeve » Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:34 pm

What the hell, lets rant some more.
Stop and seize
...
A thriving subculture of road officers on the network now competes to see who can seize the most cash and contraband, describing their exploits in the network’s chat rooms and sharing “trophy shots” of money and drugs. Some police advocate highway interdiction as a way of raising revenue for cash-strapped municipalities.

“All of our home towns are sitting on a tax-liberating gold mine,” Deputy Ron Hain of Kane County, Ill., wrote in a self-published book under a pseudonym. Hain is a marketing specialist for Desert Snow, a leading interdiction training firm based in Guthrie, Okla., whose founders also created Black Asphalt.

Hain’s book calls for “turning our police forces into present-day Robin Hoods.”

Cash seizures can be made under state or federal civil law. One of the primary ways police departments are able to seize money and share in the proceeds at the federal level is through a long-standing Justice Department civil asset forfeiture program known as Equitable Sharing. Asset forfeiture is an extraordinarily powerful law enforcement tool that allows the government to take cash and property without pressing criminal charges and then requires the owners to prove their possessions were legally acquired.

The practice has been controversial since its inception at the height of the drug war more than three decades ago, and its abuses have been the subject of journalistic exposés and congressional hearings. But unexplored until now is the role of the federal government and the private police trainers in encouraging officers to target cash on the nation’s highways since 9/11.

“Those laws were meant to take a guy out for selling $1 million in cocaine or who was trying to launder large amounts of money,” said Mark Overton, the police chief in Bal Harbour, Fla., who once oversaw a federal drug task force in South Florida. “It was never meant for a street cop to take a few thousand dollars from a driver by the side of the road.”
Nothing like those unintended consequences eh?
To examine the scope of asset forfeiture since the terror attacks, The Post analyzed a database of hundreds of thousands of seizure records at the Justice Department, reviewed hundreds of federal court cases, obtained internal records from training firms and interviewed scores of police officers, prosecutors and motorists.

Civil forfeiture cash seizures
Under the federal Equitable Sharing Program, police have seized $2.5 billion since 2001 from people who were not charged with a crime and without a warrant being issued. Police reasoned that the money was crime-related. About $1.7 billion was sent back to law enforcement agencies for their use.

The Post found:

There have been 61,998 cash seizures made on highways and elsewhere since 9/11 without search warrants or indictments through the Equitable Sharing Program, totaling more than $2.5 billion. State and local authorities kept more than $1.7 billion of that while Justice, Homeland Security and other federal agencies received $800 million. Half of the seizures were below $8,800.

Only a sixth of the seizures were legally challenged, in part because of the costs of legal action against the government. But in 41 percent of cases — 4,455 — where there was a challenge, the government agreed to return money. The appeals process took more than a year in 40 percent of those cases and often required owners of the cash to sign agreements not to sue police over the seizures.
...
there is lots more...
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