Concerned about the gender pay gap? Well are you?

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Re: Concerned about the gender pay gap? Well are you?

Postby gnome » Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:46 pm

An interesting article from a group usually willing to dig deeper:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... r-pay-gap/

They largely agree that the 77 cents figure is misinterpreted just in the manner that you describe, and in fact they've dinged President Obama for claims on that before.

They do cite a study that corrected for many factors, and still showed a 7% gap. But that certainly isn't as large, and even that study mentioned potential factors that are difficult to measure.
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Re: Concerned about the gender pay gap? Well are you?

Postby Skeeve » Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:35 pm

Then Skank Of America could start in...

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Re: Concerned about the gender pay gap? Well are you?

Postby Anaxagoras » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:53 am

Unpacking the Gender Earnings Gap among Uber driver-partners

An interesting study of a particular industry.

Because we can pretty much rule out discrimination or gender bias from either the employer or customers here. The algorithm doesn't know or make any adjustment for the driver's gender, and customers also can't know the driver's gender. So would there still be a gap in hourly earnings? :notsure:

Yes. About 7% per hour. Three factors seem to account for the gap:

1) Time and place. Some times and places are more lucrative than others and men disproportionately work during those times and at those places (about 20%)
2) Experience. Drivers with more experience seem to earn more per hour. This is not because of seniority pay, but simply because they have learned the tricks of the job to maximize their pay. (30%)
3) Men drive faster. (50%)

The most straightforward way then to earn more as an Uber driver is to drive faster.

Prior to an examination of the gap’s underlying causes, it is worth considering the following. This result is somewhat surprising because Uber uses a gender-blind algorithm and drivers earn according to a transparent formula based on the time and distance of trips. There are no negotiated pay rates or convex returns to long hours worked, factors that have been shown to open a gender earnings gap in other settings. Our research also finds that both average rider ratings of drivers and cancellation rates are roughly equivalent between genders and we find no evidence that outright discrimination, either by the app or by riders, is driving the gender earnings gap.
So what’s driving the gap? Three factors: experience, speed and preferences for where to drive.


They also talk about the attrition rate: Most new Uber drivers quit within 6 months, but women quit at higher rates than men, therefore the average male Uber driver has more experience than the average female. On the Freakonomics podcast, they said the 6-month attrition rate is 63% for men and 73% for women. I wonder how that compares to, say, McDonalds. Or other jobs.
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Re: Concerned about the gender pay gap? Well are you?

Postby gnome » Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:53 pm

I wouldn't expect this happens with any kind of gender disparity, but is there a cancellation effect?

Someone calls for an Uber, gets a look at the driver or the car and just "Nope!" and waves them off?

It might be a potential source of SOME kind of customer bias, but I would be really surprised if anything having to do with gender turned up there.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Concerned about the gender pay gap? Well are you?

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:03 pm

gnome wrote:It might be a potential source of SOME kind of customer bias, but I would be really surprised if anything having to do with gender turned up there.


Perhaps race correlates with gender in a counter-intuitive way among Uber drivers (who are after all self-selected)?
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Re: Concerned about the gender pay gap? Well are you?

Postby Grammatron » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:03 pm

gnome wrote:I wouldn't expect this happens with any kind of gender disparity, but is there a cancellation effect?

Someone calls for an Uber, gets a look at the driver or the car and just "Nope!" and waves them off?

I doubt it, that costs money.
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Re: Concerned about the gender pay gap? Well are you?

Postby corplinx » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:34 pm

As the father of a 10 year old daughter, I teach her how to negotiate like a man does.

Most of this paygap nonsense has that whole "soft bigotry of low expectations" that wants women to be treated differently during salary negotiations.

If we have the evidence that women ask for less money and cave more quickly on lowballs, we should be telling our spouses and daughters to shoot high and don't be afraid to walk away from the negotiation; even if they aren't testosterone filled. Even if it requires mansplaining how to negotiate with them.

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Re: Concerned about the gender pay gap? Well are you?

Postby gnome » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:27 pm

How many people actually get to negotiate their pay?

ETA: I'm sure lots of people do. But I wonder if there aren't large sectors (or pay levels) where that isn't relevant.
Last edited by gnome on Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Concerned about the gender pay gap? Well are you?

Postby gnome » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:37 pm

Grammatron wrote:
gnome wrote:I wouldn't expect this happens with any kind of gender disparity, but is there a cancellation effect?

Someone calls for an Uber, gets a look at the driver or the car and just "Nope!" and waves them off?

I doubt it, that costs money.


See, I don't know the rules there. Is it a cancellation fee? Are there ways to get around it, like if you think the vehicle is unsafe. (or if you want to say the vehicle didn't look safe to conceal an arbitrary reason?)
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Concerned about the gender pay gap? Well are you?

Postby Grammatron » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:56 pm

gnome wrote:
Grammatron wrote:
gnome wrote:I wouldn't expect this happens with any kind of gender disparity, but is there a cancellation effect?

Someone calls for an Uber, gets a look at the driver or the car and just "Nope!" and waves them off?

I doubt it, that costs money.


See, I don't know the rules there. Is it a cancellation fee? Are there ways to get around it, like if you think the vehicle is unsafe. (or if you want to say the vehicle didn't look safe to conceal an arbitrary reason?)


There really isn't a way around, IFAIK. Here's Uber FAQ on the matter.
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Re: Concerned about the gender pay gap? Well are you?

Postby gnome » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:13 am

Ok. It sounds like if you need to cancel for cause, so to speak, you get charged but can try and get it back. That sounds about right, otherwise there is a huge potential to waste people's time.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Concerned about the gender pay gap? Well are you?

Postby Rob Lister » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:13 pm

gnome wrote:I wouldn't expect this happens with any kind of gender disparity, but is there a cancellation effect?

Someone calls for an Uber, gets a look at the driver or the car and just "Nope!" and waves them off?

It might be a potential source of SOME kind of customer bias, but I would be really surprised if anything having to do with gender turned up there.


The Cancellation Effect. Oddly put, just sayin'

If there was a trend of cancellation based on gender, it would probably be biased against male drivers. A male passenger might pull his seatbelt a little tighter if it is a female driver but he's hardly going to forego the ride. A female driver may actually feel physically threatened; rape, etc., if the male driver [looks] a little iffy.

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Re: Concerned about the gender pay gap? Well are you?

Postby gnome » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:17 pm

Not too far from my thoughts.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Concerned about the gender pay gap? Well are you?

Postby Rob Lister » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:08 pm


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Re: Concerned about the gender pay gap? Well are you?

Postby Anaxagoras » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:16 am

Charts showing the main reason for the gender wage gap:

https://www.vox.com/2018/2/19/17018380/ ... re-penalty

It's sort of a "duh" thing, except for a small percentage of households that choose to have a stay-at-home dad and let mom be the main breadwinner. That's not what most women are really looking for in a husband.

It’s not totally clear why, for example, Danish women still take the vast majority of parental leave that could be used by either parent.


Well, I think I know why that is, but they seem to think it's a mystery.
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Re: Concerned about the gender pay gap? Well are you?

Postby Doctor X » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:40 am

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Re: Concerned about the gender pay gap? Well are you?

Postby Rob Lister » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:52 am

Anaxagoras wrote:Charts showing the main reason for the gender wage gap:

https://www.vox.com/2018/2/19/17018380/ ... re-penalty

It's sort of a "duh" thing, except for a small percentage of households that choose to have a stay-at-home dad and let mom be the main breadwinner. That's not what most women are really looking for in a husband.

It’s not totally clear why, for example, Danish women still take the vast majority of parental leave that could be used by either parent.


Well, I think I know why that is, but they seem to think it's a mystery.


I'm guessing you mean breast feeding but there is nothing preventing a man from getting hormone treatments and taking on that responsibility. :)

If I'm reading those charts correctly, it implies that women without children have a higher earning potential than men, +4 and +2 respectively.

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Re: Concerned about the gender pay gap? Well are you?

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:31 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:Charts showing the main reason for the gender wage gap:

https://www.vox.com/2018/2/19/17018380/ ... re-penalty

It's sort of a "duh" thing, except for a small percentage of households that choose to have a stay-at-home dad and let mom be the main breadwinner. That's not what most women are really looking for in a husband.

It’s not totally clear why, for example, Danish women still take the vast majority of parental leave that could be used by either parent.


Well, I think I know why that is, but they seem to think it's a mystery.



If they were honest, they'd count the "individual" income of each spouse as half what the man makes. After all, that is in fact what the law says.

But they are not honest.

They want a commissar in charge of who gets paid what, and effectively make it impossible to be a stay at home mother.

Other than a single mother on welfare, of course.
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Re: Concerned about the gender pay gap? Well are you?

Postby Giz » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:34 pm

Rob Lister wrote:
Anaxagoras wrote:Charts showing the main reason for the gender wage gap:

https://www.vox.com/2018/2/19/17018380/ ... re-penalty

It's sort of a "duh" thing, except for a small percentage of households that choose to have a stay-at-home dad and let mom be the main breadwinner. That's not what most women are really looking for in a husband.

It’s not totally clear why, for example, Danish women still take the vast majority of parental leave that could be used by either parent.


Well, I think I know why that is, but they seem to think it's a mystery.


I'm guessing you mean breast feeding but there is nothing preventing a man from getting hormone treatments and taking on that responsibility. :)

If I'm reading those charts correctly, it implies that women without children have a higher earning potential than men, +4 and +2 respectively.


Not surprising, if you stay with the assumption that on average women and men have similar earnings potential and then have a subset of the female population with lower interest in a career remove itself from the group, you'd expect the remainder to be of above average earnings.

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Re: Concerned about the gender pay gap? Well are you?

Postby Rob Lister » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:35 pm

Giz wrote:
Rob Lister wrote:
Anaxagoras wrote:Charts showing the main reason for the gender wage gap:

https://www.vox.com/2018/2/19/17018380/ ... re-penalty

It's sort of a "duh" thing, except for a small percentage of households that choose to have a stay-at-home dad and let mom be the main breadwinner. That's not what most women are really looking for in a husband.

It’s not totally clear why, for example, Danish women still take the vast majority of parental leave that could be used by either parent.


Well, I think I know why that is, but they seem to think it's a mystery.


I'm guessing you mean breast feeding but there is nothing preventing a man from getting hormone treatments and taking on that responsibility. :)

If I'm reading those charts correctly, it implies that women without children have a higher earning potential than men, +4 and +2 respectively.


Not surprising, if you stay with the assumption that on average women and men have similar earnings potential and then have a subset of the female population with lower interest in a career remove itself from the group, you'd expect the remainder to be of above average earnings.


You make a strong serious argument for my jest above.


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