Wells Fargo

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Re: Wells Fargo

Post by Skeeve » Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:21 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:Perhaps the real issue is that he shouldn't have got the loan in the first place?
You are looking at the $20,000 paid, and the $10,000 they tried to get from him, plus the price at auction I take it?
Yea, I wondered what kind of vehicle it was... and maybe they should NOT have loaned him the money.

However neither point is relevant.

Wells Fargo broke the law.
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Re: Wells Fargo

Post by Skeeve » Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:30 pm

WildCat wrote:If they had got a court order his credit would still be shot and he'd still owe the bank for the difference.
and all of this would be a non-issue, maybe,then again, maybe not.
However I will agree with you that if they had bothered to get the court order, his credit may well have been shot.

Problem, they did not do that, instead they Broke the Law!
WildCat wrote:And did Wells Fargo even know he had entered military service?
I don't know.
However this seems to be systemic at least to some extent. I would be surprised if they didn't.
Consider:
...
The bank was fined $20 million more by the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency for breaking three provisions of the same law by denying members of the military certain banking protections, including capping their interest rates at 6%. Those violations began in 2006, the OCC said.
link
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Re: Wells Fargo

Post by WildCat » Thu Oct 06, 2016 9:38 pm

Skeeve wrote:
WildCat wrote:If they had got a court order his credit would still be shot and he'd still owe the bank for the difference.
and all of this would be a non-issue, maybe,then again, maybe not.
However I will agree with you that if they had bothered to get the court order, his credit may well have been shot.

Problem, they did not do that, instead they Broke the Law!
WildCat wrote:And did Wells Fargo even know he had entered military service?
I don't know.
However this seems to be systemic at least to some extent. I would be surprised if they didn't.
Consider:
...
The bank was fined $20 million more by the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency for breaking three provisions of the same law by denying members of the military certain banking protections, including capping their interest rates at 6%. Those violations began in 2006, the OCC said.
link
How does a bank know if someone joined the military after they've been issued a loan?
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Re: Wells Fargo

Post by Skeeve » Thu Oct 06, 2016 9:56 pm

WildCat wrote:[...
...big snip (look above)...
How does a bank know if someone joined the military after they've been issued a loan?[/quote]
They might have asked if he was in the service or reserves or subject to being called up on the application maybe?

I don't know WildCat.

However if that was all Wells Fargo needed to show (that they had NO idea this guy was in the service),
do you really think this would have gone so far? I don't.

Least we forget:
...
Federal authorities are punishing the San Francisco-based lender for as many as 413 alleged violations of the Servicemembers Civil Relief Act, according to a statement Thursday from the Justice Department, which said the bank agreed to pay more than $4 million to compensate borrowers involved in unlawful repossessions spread over seven years. The bank’s regulator, the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency, also fined the company $20 million for a decade of transgressions, the agency said in a statement.

“Wells Fargo Bank unlawfully repossessed hundreds of servicemembers’ cars without the proper process, and the bank will now rightfully pay for its violations,” Bill Baer, the Justice Department’s No. 3 official, said in a statement. The department “is committed to protecting our country’s servicemembers as they continue to fight for our freedom.”
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Re: Wells Fargo

Post by WildCat » Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:46 pm

Skeeve wrote:They might have asked if he was in the service or reserves or subject to being called up on the application maybe?
The law you cited is applicable ONLY to service members who joined after the loan was made: "This section applies only to a contract for which a deposit or
installment has been paid by the servicemember before the servicemember enters military service."
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Re: Wells Fargo

Post by Skeeve » Fri Oct 07, 2016 4:31 am

WildCat wrote:
Skeeve wrote:They might have asked if he was in the service or reserves or subject to being called up on the application maybe?
The law you cited is applicable ONLY to service members who joined after the loan was made: "This section applies only to a contract for which a deposit or
installment has been paid by the servicemember before the servicemember enters military service."
I think the phrase "enters military service" refers to actual deployment, not "joining the service."
The federal investigation began after a complaint from the U.S. Army's Legal Assistance Program in March 2015 alleging that Wells Fargo had repossessed a serviceman's used car while he was preparing to deploy to Afghanistan. The car was sold at public auction and the lender tried to collect over $10,000 from the service member and his family. It was later determined that the repossession violated the Servicemembers Civil Relief Act, or SCRA, which protects service members from repossession without obtaining a court order.

Read more: http://www.bankrate.com/financing/cars/ ... z4MN0yTw3o
Still, this is something (one would think) a bank would check on, before they repossess, and auction off a vehicle, and then go after the former owner for $10,000 more.
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Re: Wells Fargo

Post by WildCat » Sat Oct 08, 2016 3:18 am

Skeeve wrote:
WildCat wrote:
Skeeve wrote:They might have asked if he was in the service or reserves or subject to being called up on the application maybe?
The law you cited is applicable ONLY to service members who joined after the loan was made: "This section applies only to a contract for which a deposit or
installment has been paid by the servicemember before the servicemember enters military service."
I think the phrase "enters military service" refers to actual deployment, not "joining the service."
The federal investigation began after a complaint from the U.S. Army's Legal Assistance Program in March 2015 alleging that Wells Fargo had repossessed a serviceman's used car while he was preparing to deploy to Afghanistan. The car was sold at public auction and the lender tried to collect over $10,000 from the service member and his family. It was later determined that the repossession violated the Servicemembers Civil Relief Act, or SCRA, which protects service members from repossession without obtaining a court order.

Read more: http://www.bankrate.com/financing/cars/ ... z4MN0yTw3o
Still, this is something (one would think) a bank would check on, before they repossess, and auction off a vehicle, and then go after the former owner for $10,000 more.
I've never heard that term used to refer to deployment before.
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Re: Wells Fargo

Post by Skeeve » Sat Oct 08, 2016 4:20 am

WildCat wrote:
Skeeve wrote: ...
I think the phrase "enters military service" refers to actual deployment, not "joining the service."
The federal investigation began after a complaint from the U.S. Army's Legal Assistance Program in March 2015 alleging that Wells Fargo had repossessed a serviceman's used car while he was preparing to deploy to Afghanistan. The car was sold at public auction and the lender tried to collect over $10,000 from the service member and his family. It was later determined that the repossession violated the Servicemembers Civil Relief Act, or SCRA, which protects service members from repossession without obtaining a court order.

Read more: http://www.bankrate.com/financing/cars/ ... z4MN0yTw3o
Still, this is something (one would think) a bank would check on, before they repossess, and auction off a vehicle, and then go after the former owner for $10,000 more.
I've never heard that term used to refer to deployment before.
Within this law, the phrase "military service" is defined:
...
(2) Military service. The term "military service" means—
(A) in the case of a servicemember who is a member of the Army, Navy, Air
Force, Marine Corps, or Coast Guard—
(i) active duty, as defined in section 101(d)(1) of title 10, United
States Code,and
(ii) in the case of a member of the National Guard, includes
service under a call to active service authorized by the
President or the Secretary of Defense for a period of more than
30 consecutive days ...
link
That does not sound like joining to me.
In any case this guy was deploying to Afghanistan.
This implies he was already in the service.
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Re: Wells Fargo

Post by WildCat » Sat Oct 08, 2016 2:53 pm

The term was "enters military service", which means joining the military.
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Re: Wells Fargo

Post by Skeeve » Sat Oct 08, 2016 10:24 pm

WildCat wrote:The term was "enters military service", which means joining the military.
I agree with you the part of the law I quoted might seem to indicate that.
(lets here it for our elected parasites senators and congress critters)
The law itself defines the phrase as I have shown above (active service)

And in any case the person referred to in the article was deploying.
Which implies he WAS already in the military, he was not just joining.

I think we are debating a fairly minor point here....
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Re: Wells Fargo

Post by Anaxagoras » Sat Oct 08, 2016 11:00 pm

Episode 728: The Wells Fargo Hustle

Latest episode of Planet Money.
The third-largest bank in the country, Wells Fargo, is in big trouble. A federal investigation found that Wells Fargo was opening bank accounts without customers' permission. Perhaps as many as two million fraudulent accounts.

After the scandal broke, Wells Fargo's CEO John Stumpf was called to Capitol Hill to testify. He told the senators that the bank's upper management wasn't responsible for the giant scam. He said it was just a bunch of bad apples working at bank branches. Mostly low-level employees.

One of the low-level employees was watching her former boss testify. And she couldn't believe it. This wasn't Wells Fargo's culture? Upper management had nothing to do with it? She knew the company in branches across the country had pushed and pushed young bankers until they broke the rules. Even the law.

Today on the show, we take you inside the branch at the headquarters of Well Fargo bank. A place where a lot of workers were rewarded for doing some very bad things.
If you prefer to read rather than listen, here's an article that covers the same thing:

Former Wells Fargo Employees Describe Toxic Sales Culture, Even At HQ
Wells Fargo is embroiled in a scandal for taking advantage of customers by opening as many as 2 million accounts without their consent. The bank fired 5,300 mostly lower-level workers over the wrongdoing.

But Wells Fargo says those workers represent a tiny fraction of employees. The bank basically says they were bad apples who have been fired and who are not representative of the broader culture and practices at the company.
"Wrongful sales practice behavior," Stumpf told the Senate banking committee, "goes against everything regarding our core principals, our ethics and our culture."

Stumpf says the bank never directed nor wanted employees to provide products and services to customers that they did not want.

But former Wells Fargo employees have been watching that testimony — and the ones we spoke to say, in no uncertain terms, they aren't buying it.

"Bulls***," says one former employee who we'll call Worker #1. She doesn't want to use her name for fear that talking to NPR will prevent her from getting a job at another bank.

She says Stumpf is not describing the Wells Fargo she worked at for 5 years.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: Wells Fargo

Post by Skeeve » Sat Oct 08, 2016 11:51 pm

...
"It's like being called into the principal's office," she says. "Sit down at the large conference table, no windows in this room, they shut the door, lock the door." Then she says managers would give her a "formal warning" and tell her to sign it. And she says they'd tell her, "If you don't meet your solutions you're not a team player. If you're bringing down the team then you will be fired and it will be on your permanent record." She said she was in her early 20s, like many of the lower level sales people in the office. She says she was afraid to lose her job, especially because this started back when the economy was still in bad shape. "You were stuck and it was the feeling that no other employer is going to want you because we will ruin you."
Culture of fear.
That is sad, and lame (of Wells Fargo).

I'll never do business Wells Fargo again.
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Re: Wells Fargo

Post by Anaxagoras » Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:55 am

Skeeve wrote:
...
"It's like being called into the principal's office," she says. "Sit down at the large conference table, no windows in this room, they shut the door, lock the door." Then she says managers would give her a "formal warning" and tell her to sign it. And she says they'd tell her, "If you don't meet your solutions you're not a team player. If you're bringing down the team then you will be fired and it will be on your permanent record." She said she was in her early 20s, like many of the lower level sales people in the office. She says she was afraid to lose her job, especially because this started back when the economy was still in bad shape. "You were stuck and it was the feeling that no other employer is going to want you because we will ruin you."
Culture of fear.
That is sad, and lame (of Wells Fargo).

I'll never do business Wells Fargo again.
Yeah, if you didn't meet your quotas, not only would they fire you, but they'd put a black mark on your record so that no other bank would hire you. You had to find a way to make those quotas one way or another. It's no wonder over 5000 resorted to cheating (and cheating was tolerated until regulators started looking at what they were doing).
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Re: Wells Fargo

Post by Skeeve » Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:16 pm

Epilogue
Wells Fargo is trying to clean up the mess created by its high-pressure sales culture, which drove employees to open millions of unauthorized accounts in the names of customers. Pledging accountability, the bank is paying restitution to customers who were charged for these sham accounts, reviewing its process controls, and — as it announced Tuesday — eliminating sales goals for its retail bank products.

In connection with the “widespread illegal practices,” Wells Fargo has also fired 5,300 employees and managers, with one notable exception: the executive in charge.

Instead of bearing any responsibility for this scandal, Carrie Tolstedt, the divisional senior vice president for community banking who supervised the 6,000 retail branches where the wrongdoing took place, is retiring, taking with her millions in stock and options.

Wells Fargo was aware of the problems in the division when Ms. Tolstedt announced her retirement on July 12. The bank’s sales practices have been under regulatory scrutiny since at least November. Further, the bank itself has been working to identify the affected customers and complicit employees.

Despite knowing about the widespread misconduct on her watch, Wells Fargo gave Ms. Tolstedt a glowing farewell. John Stumpf, the chief executive, called her a “role model for responsible leadership” and “a standard-bearer of our culture.
:BlowChunks:

And least we forget....
Wells Fargo’s Heir Apparent Has Ties to Scandal
Wells Fargo is circling the stagecoaches around a top deputy.

The lender handed more power to its president and chief operating officer, Timothy J. Sloan, with three new senior executives and an expanded financial-technology group reporting to him. That ostensibly puts Mr. Sloan in even better position to succeed the company’s chief executive and his boss, John G. Stumpf. It is not clear, however, why an executive so closely linked to the fake-accounts scandal should lead the company.

Mr. Sloan has been a member of Wells Fargo’s operating committee for most of this decade, including the period when the bank started to fire 5,300 people for their roles in opening two million bogus bank and credit card accounts. His involvement might have been somewhat excused had he stayed head of commercial or wholesale banking, where he spent most of his career.

As chief administrative officer from 2010 to 2011, however, Mr. Sloan’s role included overseeing Wells Fargo’s human resources and reputation management. He then became finance chief for three years. And one of his direct reports when he was promoted to chief operating officer last year was Carrie Tolstedt, who ran the offending community-banking division until earlier this year.

That makes Mr. Sloan a member of the inner circle that would have known about the wrongdoing from its early days and tried to deal with it. This group hardly covered itself in glory: It was still handing out pink slips in 2016, five years after the first bankers were shown the door. Mr. Stumpf and Ms. Tolstedt have already ceded compensation for the mess. Investigations by the board and regulators may yet implicate Mr. Sloan and others.
Maybe some justice...but I doubt it. At worst a couple of years in a SUPER min prison (aka country club)
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Re: Wells Fargo

Post by Skeeve » Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:19 pm

Wells Fargo CEO John Stumpf Resigns Amid Scandal
Updated at 6:15pm ET with Wells Fargo statement.

The chairman and chief executive of Wells Fargo & Co., John Stumpf, has resigned effective immediately in the aftermath of a scandal over the bank's past practice of secretly selling services to unsuspecting customers.

Stumpf will be replaced by President and Chief Operating Officer Timothy Sloan, long considered to be Stumpf's eventual successor.

Wells Fargo has been hammered in recent weeks by critics who say the bank unfairly took advantage of customers to meet sales targets. In September, the bank agreed to pay $185 million to settle charges that it had opened as many as 2 million accounts without the knowledge or approval of customers.

The bank's board already had sought to discipline Stumpf by requiring him to forfeit $41 million in unvested equity.

In a statement, Wells Fargo Lead Director Stephen Sanger said:
"John Stumpf has dedicated his professional life to banking, successfully leading Wells Fargo through the financial crisis and the largest merger in banking history, and helping to create one of the strongest and most well-known financial services companies in the world. However, he believes new leadership at this time is appropriate to guide Wells Fargo through its current challenges and take the Company forward."
Stumpf joined Wells Fargo in 1982 and became the bank's CEO in June 2007 and its chairman in January 2010, according to the statement.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss!

What the heck time for some rock and roll, Wake up skeptics, its Friday!
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Re: Wells Fargo

Post by Skeeve » Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:38 pm

Wells Fargo, Samsung And Volkswagen: Can A Good Name Be Restored?
After last month's televised congressional hearings, Wells Fargo's top executive John Stumpf had become the face of the company's sham-accounts scandal. He retired Wednesday.

Stumpf's downfall was the latest twist in a strange, year-long tale about huge corporations taking their sterling reputations, tarnishing them and then frantically trying to restore luster.

Experts say undoing the harm won't be easy; great reputations can take decades to build.

And back in September 2015, each of these three companies was there – beloved not only as brands, but revered as symbols of national success:
...
Despite their many achievements, by September 2016, each was caught up in a reputational crisis caused by a failure to do the right thing in a timely manner.

Experts are shocked:


Perhaps they missed it, perhaps they were in denial, who knows.
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Re: Wells Fargo

Post by Skeeve » Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:22 pm

Is Image Everything? Analyst Sees Modest Bargain At Scandal-Ridden Wells Fargo
Any market historian can tick off countless examples of perception being worse than reality, and according to analysts at BMO Capital Markets the current state of affairs at Wells Fargo WFC -0.47% is the latest.
In brief Forbes thinks they have bottomed out.
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Re: Wells Fargo

Post by Grammatron » Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:35 pm

VW and Samsung will be fine, their brand extends well beyond few products that have issues. Not sure about Wells Fargo, but they will likely also be fine.

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Re: Wells Fargo

Post by Skeeve » Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:23 pm

Just when I thought it was over...
California Investigates Whether Wells Fargo Committed Criminal Identity Theft
California Attorney General Kamala Harris has launched an investigation into allegations that Wells Fargo & Co. engaged in criminal identity theft when the bank created millions of accounts without customer consent, according to the Los Angeles Times.

The report is based on a search warrant, served on Oct. 5 and first obtained by the Times, in which Harris' office demands the identities and account information of California customers who had "any accounts, credit cards, life insurance, or other product or service" created without the customer's authorization.

The warrant also demands the names of bank employees who opened the unauthorized accounts and the identities of the employees' managers, including "any and all communications, including email referencing" the bogus accounts.

Harris' office is seeking the same information for Wells Fargo customers who do not live in California.

A spokeswoman for the attorney general, Kristen Ford, said her office had no comment on an ongoing investigation. A spokesperson for Wells Fargo said the bank is "cooperating in providing the requested information."
The Wells Fargo account scandal resulted in a $185 million settlement with the Los Angeles city attorney's office and federal bank regulators in early September.

Last week, Wells Fargo CEO John Stumpf resigned a few weeks after the bank board required him to forfeit $41 million in unvested equity.

In a 14-page affidavit filed with the search warrant, California investigators indicate that they are looking into potential violations of state law banning the impersonation of another and the unauthorized use of personal information, the Times reports. Both offenses are considered felonies.
Hrm... maybe "flipping of the the underlings" will eventually put a Banksta' in the dock, eventually...
California Attorney General Kamala Harris, a Democrat, is running for the U.S. Senate.



Oh I'm sure this is not politically motivated...

So far:
Many of the poor schleps who did this have been fired, now they may face prosecution.
Meanwhile (so far) the CEO gets a $41 million wrist-slap,
The lady who was in charge gets a wrist slap (or nothing - have to check),
and the new CEO most likely knew about it and did nothing gets promoted.

I hope there is something more to this than political ambition... I guess we'll see.
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Re: Wells Fargo

Post by gnome » Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:57 pm

Would a court recognize a causal relationship between unrealistic targets and dishonest actions taken to fulfill them? I worry the only chance is if someone slipped up and made their expectations explicit.
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