So where is Trump on guns???

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ed
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So where is Trump on guns???

Post by ed » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:27 pm

:x :x :x :x :x :x

I thought we'd all be armed by now. Guy was supposed to loosen carry permits and all sorts of stuff. Nary a word. What gives?

:x :x :x :x :x :x
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Re: So where is Trump on guns???

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:05 pm

ed wrote: ... loosen carry permits and all sorts of stuff. ...
States' rights old boy. :BigGrin3:
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Re: So where is Trump on guns???

Post by WildCat » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:14 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
ed wrote: ... loosen carry permits and all sorts of stuff. ...
States' rights old boy. :BigGrin3:
No state right to violate the Constitution.
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Re: So where is Trump on guns???

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:19 pm

So ... "shall issue" or "constitutional carry" ?
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Re: So where is Trump on guns???

Post by WildCat » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:26 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:So ... "shall issue" or "constitutional carry" ?
As of the proposed bill that will depend on either your state of residence or the state you get your license from.
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Re: So where is Trump on guns???

Post by Rob Lister » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:30 pm

WildCat wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:
ed wrote: ... loosen carry permits and all sorts of stuff. ...
States' rights old boy. :BigGrin3:
No state right to violate the Constitution.
This question is somewhat off topic, but all Trump threads need saving, so ...
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
This is unlike all other amendments in that it contains justification. What motivated them to provide that?

I'm not implying anything. I'm just wondering if there are there any historical writings/letters/etc that explain that?

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Re: So where is Trump on guns???

Post by ed » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:36 pm

Rob Lister wrote:
WildCat wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:
ed wrote: ... loosen carry permits and all sorts of stuff. ...
States' rights old boy. :BigGrin3:
No state right to violate the Constitution.
This question is somewhat off topic, but all Trump threads need saving, so ...
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
This is unlike all other amendments in that it contains justification. What motivated them to provide that?

I'm not implying anything. I'm just wondering if there are there any historical writings/letters/etc that explain that?
The founders experienced, first hand, an absolutist government not bound by any limitations. If you look at the bill of rights, those things are pretty fucking specific and are obviously in response to events experienced by the writers.
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Amendment III

No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.

Amendment VII

In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Look at the text and realize that the things that they preclude were commonplace occurrences. Now, they call for an armed citizenry. Why do you think that is? Because of their unbridled trust in government, even their own?
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Re: So where is Trump on guns???

Post by WildCat » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:51 pm

Rob Lister wrote:
WildCat wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:
ed wrote: ... loosen carry permits and all sorts of stuff. ...
States' rights old boy. :BigGrin3:
No state right to violate the Constitution.
This question is somewhat off topic, but all Trump threads need saving, so ...
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
This is unlike all other amendments in that it contains justification. What motivated them to provide that?

I'm not implying anything. I'm just wondering if there are there any historical writings/letters/etc that explain that?
Why is it you hilited the first part and not the second part?
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

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Re: So where is Trump on guns???

Post by corplinx » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:11 pm

The colonies were not part of a republic with it's own federalized army.

They needed to be able to basically make an impromptu army from people who were not soldiers.

A well regulated militia being the purpose of having the freedom to buy and retain firearms, I would say our current militia requirements would have more training needed for someone to be useful. Most fellow gun owners I know have poor firearms proficiency.

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Re: So where is Trump on guns???

Post by WildCat » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:17 pm

corplinx wrote:The colonies were not part of a republic with it's own federalized army.

They needed to be able to basically make an impromptu army from people who were not soldiers.

A well regulated militia being the purpose of having the freedom to buy and retain firearms, I would say our current militia requirements would have more training needed for someone to be useful. Most fellow gun owners I know have poor firearms proficiency.
It's not just the militia, but also "the people" who have the right to keep and bear arms.

And despite what the gun control groups claim Heller did not overturn any previous Supreme Court decisions.

eta: and if you read Stevens' dissent he is really stretching to find reasons why "the people" means something other than "the people". He says "bearing arms" is a military term and therefore "the people" means "troops under the command and control of the government". Because ensuring that troops under the command and control of the government had the right to keep and bear arms was a big motivation for enacting the Bill of Rights!
Last edited by WildCat on Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So where is Trump on guns???

Post by corplinx » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:17 pm

More screening/training to be able to buy. Re-certification requirements. Storage requirements.

In return make all states honor carry permits, stop trying to outlaw scary guns, eliminate anti-interstate regulation (ballistic fingerprint woo rounds in the case, mandated locks with cases, almost all cali law), and reduce the size of the book that came with my Curios and Relics FFA by about 1/2.

Regulate the militia and not the gun.

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Re: So where is Trump on guns???

Post by Rob Lister » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:22 pm

WildCat wrote:
Rob Lister wrote:
WildCat wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:
ed wrote: ... loosen carry permits and all sorts of stuff. ...
States' rights old boy. :BigGrin3:
No state right to violate the Constitution.
This question is somewhat off topic, but all Trump threads need saving, so ...
memberlist.php
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
This is unlike all other amendments in that it contains justification. What motivated them to provide that?

I'm not implying anything. I'm just wondering if there are there any historical writings/letters/etc that explain that?
Why is it you hilited the first part and not the second part?
I thought that was obvious. I highlighted the justification because that was my subject. duh.

Stop knee-jerking you jerk. I'll kneecap you if you do it again.
Last edited by Rob Lister on Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: So where is Trump on guns???

Post by WildCat » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:23 pm

corplinx wrote:More screening/training to be able to buy. Re-certification requirements. Storage requirements.
For what reason? You're not allowed to just speculate, Chicago just lost another gun law case because it was all based on speculation over what could happen. I really doubt that you'll be able to make a case for your proposed conditions given that the overwhelming majority of gun crimes are committed by people who bought and owned them illegally in the first place.
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

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Re: So where is Trump on guns???

Post by WildCat » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:26 pm

Rob Lister wrote:I thought that was obvious. I highlighted the justification because that was my subject. duh.
What leads you to believe that that was justification for the second part? Why say "the people" instead of "the militia" if they meant "the militia"?
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

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Re: So where is Trump on guns???

Post by ed » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:30 pm

corplinx wrote:More screening/training to be able to buy. Re-certification requirements. Storage requirements.

In return make all states honor carry permits, stop trying to outlaw scary guns, eliminate anti-interstate regulation (ballistic fingerprint woo rounds in the case, mandated locks with cases, almost all cali law), and reduce the size of the book that came with my Curios and Relics FFA by about 1/2.

Regulate the militia and not the gun.
Training? For a C&R?
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Re: So where is Trump on guns???

Post by Rob Lister » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:30 pm

WildCat wrote:
Rob Lister wrote:I thought that was obvious. I highlighted the justification because that was my subject. duh.
What leads you to believe that that was justification for the second part? Why say "the people" instead of "the militia" if they meant "the militia"?
Because it is. The first clause was justification for the second clause.

Honest to god, I'm going to kneecap you. And then I'm going to curb stomp you. And then I'm going to let ed have has way with you.

If you don't know, say you don't know.

Hell, I don't know. That's why I asked.
Last edited by Rob Lister on Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: So where is Trump on guns???

Post by ed » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:32 pm

And, BTW, I don't trust the government to establish a "training" regimen and then not expand it into a poll tax.
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Re: So where is Trump on guns???

Post by corplinx » Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:09 pm

That's why the NRA should be _leading_ instead of just paying off congressmen to obstruct.

Eventually, some deranged shooter will spur shoddily written gun control that makes no sense.

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Re: So where is Trump on guns???

Post by ed » Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:13 pm

We have gun control. If it were enforced in places like LA and Chi there would be cries of racism since black lives really are not worth spit.
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Re: So where is Trump on guns???

Post by WildCat » Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:18 pm

Rob Lister wrote:
WildCat wrote:
Rob Lister wrote:I thought that was obvious. I highlighted the justification because that was my subject. duh.
What leads you to believe that that was justification for the second part? Why say "the people" instead of "the militia" if they meant "the militia"?
Because it is. The first clause was justification for the second clause.

Honest to god, I'm going to kneecap you. And then I'm going to curb stomp you. And then I'm going to let ed have has way with you.

If you don't know, say you don't know.

Hell, I don't know. That's why I asked.
I think I know, and it's the interpretation that held sway since it was written. Miller excepted, but since the plaintiff died before the hearing and only the government made arguments it's bad precedent... and if it is takes as good precedent then we all have the right to full-auto military arms.
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj