TERF

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 70361
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 3054 times
Been thanked: 1136 times

Re: TERF

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:43 pm

Just as an aside, I was exposed to postmodern critical theory before it became just another orthodoxy. It was bullshit even then.
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box.
-- our mission statement plappendale

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 21945
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 354 times
Been thanked: 373 times

Re: TERF

Post by gnome » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:01 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
So what exactly does it mean to say something is a "social construct"?
Is that really difficult? It relates to how people behave and interact (social) and is of human design (construct). How's that?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 70361
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 3054 times
Been thanked: 1136 times

Re: TERF

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:12 pm

gnome wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:
So what exactly does it mean to say something is a "social construct"?
Is that really difficult? It relates to how people behave and interact (social) and is of human design (construct). How's that?
Thinking in terms of words having meanings.

So sorry. You are not pomo at all. :P
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box.
-- our mission statement plappendale

User avatar
Cloverlief
Posts: 5023
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:59 pm
Location: Here, there or somewhere
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 35 times

Re: TERF

Post by Cloverlief » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:16 pm

Grammatron wrote:
Cloverlief wrote: It is sad that you are stuck in your white lameness that you can't see that others don't share your same rights.
I hold the opinion that I hold based on my life experience, information I've read and watched and people I interact with. I do challenge myself and welcome any challenge to any part of it. But I don't understand why you start off and continue with launching insults at me. You think using a racial insult on me will change my opinion?
So what you are saying is you hold the opinion that is confirmed by you being a white male and not bothering to step out of that and consider other people's experiences or at least listen to what they have to say. Gotcha.
Chani

User avatar
Grammatron
Posts: 33356
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:21 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 1691 times

Re: TERF

Post by Grammatron » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:33 pm

Cloverlief wrote:
Grammatron wrote:
Cloverlief wrote: It is sad that you are stuck in your white lameness that you can't see that others don't share your same rights.
I hold the opinion that I hold based on my life experience, information I've read and watched and people I interact with. I do challenge myself and welcome any challenge to any part of it. But I don't understand why you start off and continue with launching insults at me. You think using a racial insult on me will change my opinion?
So what you are saying is you hold the opinion that is confirmed by you being a white male and not bothering to step out of that and consider other people's experiences or at least listen to what they have to say. Gotcha.
No.

User avatar
Grammatron
Posts: 33356
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:21 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 1691 times

Re: TERF

Post by Grammatron » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:35 pm

Look, you clearly have no desire to have a conversation with me on this topic, so I will save you the trouble.

User avatar
Doctor X
Posts: 67118
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom
Has thanked: 3321 times
Been thanked: 2098 times

Re: TERF

Post by Doctor X » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:57 pm

Such fallacies serve to protect the user from having to confront the opinions of another and question his own.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

WS CHAMPIONS X3!!! NBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup! SB CHAMPIONS X5!!!!!
AL East Champs!!

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 70361
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 3054 times
Been thanked: 1136 times

Re: TERF

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:00 am

MRAs (who Chani invokes as denunciation fodder) are volubly anti-feminist and laugh about the TERF issue making trouble for the feminist movement.

But the MRAs agree that trans women are men.
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box.
-- our mission statement plappendale

User avatar
WildCat
Posts: 13702
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:53 am
Location: The 33rd Ward, Chicago
Has thanked: 30 times
Been thanked: 312 times

Re: TERF

Post by WildCat » Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:27 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote:MRAs (who Chani invokes as denunciation fodder) are volubly anti-feminist and laugh about the TERF issue making trouble for the feminist movement.

But the MRAs agree that trans women are men.
I know a guy who likes "chicks with dicks" who insists he's not gay.

Seems like pure semantics to me.
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

User avatar
Anaxagoras
Posts: 21246
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:45 am
Location: Yokohama/Tokyo, Japan
Has thanked: 1366 times
Been thanked: 1156 times

Re: TERF

Post by Anaxagoras » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:26 am

Cloverlief wrote:
Grammatron wrote:
Cloverlief wrote:
Grammatron wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote: This is about an internal struggle in a particular movement.

Google "cotton ceiling" (but not at work).
IMO this is a problem with all these types of causes. Where groups are trying to segment and one-up each other in some bizarre victimhood competition. People start getting offended by facts and any conversation that's not complete acquiescence is treated as hostility.
Spoken like a true MRA. No, it isn't about victimhood, it is about equal rights and being treated fairly and with decency.
I don't know what MRA is. If being treated equally is the goal then groups are failing at it.
No, it isn't. We have come a long way, the ability to vote, to own property, to have credit in our own name, to nor be legally raped by a spouse, and a lot if other issues.

It is sad that you are stuck in your white lameness that you can't see that others don't share your same rights.

With regard to what Grammy said, I think the problem with it is that dismissing a whole movement as a "victimhood competition" is overly simplistic and insulting. Painting with to broad a brush. It's not that simple, and there are legitimate issues. OTOH, I don't think Grammy is truly an "MRA" any more than Chani is a "TERF" just because she thinks that women's issues are distinct from those of trans people. Using these labels as ad hominems doesn't really move the discussion forward either.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

User avatar
Carr
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:01 am
Title: Floor Walker
Location: Road Prison 36
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 23 times

Re: TERF

Post by Carr » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:03 am

Any man who . . . any man or woman who . . . any man or woman or trans-gendered man . . . any man or woman or trans-gendered man or woman . . . damn it!

Anyone who don't keep order spends a night in the box!
Any man who don't keep order spends a night in the box!

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 21945
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 354 times
Been thanked: 373 times

Re: TERF

Post by gnome » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:05 pm

WildCat wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:MRAs (who Chani invokes as denunciation fodder) are volubly anti-feminist and laugh about the TERF issue making trouble for the feminist movement.

But the MRAs agree that trans women are men.
I know a guy who likes "chicks with dicks" who insists he's not gay.

Seems like pure semantics to me.
How would it be anything else, in a discussion of what a label means?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 70361
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 3054 times
Been thanked: 1136 times

Re: TERF

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:21 pm

gnome wrote:How would it be anything else, in a discussion of what a label means?
Merely pointing out the shell game that is post-modernism.

Nothing is in good faith. It is pre se bad faith and intellectual dishonesty systematized by very intelligent people.

Whatever "socially constructed" might possibly mean, it does not mean anything when used by the sort of people who talk about things being "socially constructed".
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box.
-- our mission statement plappendale

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 70361
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 3054 times
Been thanked: 1136 times

Re: TERF

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:22 pm

gnome wrote:
WildCat wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:MRAs (who Chani invokes as denunciation fodder) are volubly anti-feminist and laugh about the TERF issue making trouble for the feminist movement.

But the MRAs agree that trans women are men.
I know a guy who likes "chicks with dicks" who insists he's not gay.

Seems like pure semantics to me.
How would it be anything else, in a discussion of what a label means?
It is simply that there is some social stigma associated with being gay. Still.
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box.
-- our mission statement plappendale

User avatar
Skeeve
Posts: 10187
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:35 am
Has thanked: 43 times
Been thanked: 76 times

Re: TERF

Post by Skeeve » Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:15 pm

Cloverlief wrote:
Skeeve wrote:
Cloverlief wrote:...

Gender is a social construct, and as such it can be damaging. I just want to see people be accepted as people and not be abused because they do something that harms nobody, but is not seen societally acceptable.
...
Most of us, however, are born as either male or female.

I believe this has been the case for all recorded time.
IOW, It isn't something that someone thought up in recently...
This is true. Sex is a biological fact. Gender is a social construct. Sex does not equal Gender. ..
Sex <> Gender???
so then: Male <> Male and Female <> Female???

Gender may be a 'social construct' however it has also been with us for some time, kind of like sex...
Then Skank Of America could start in...

User avatar
WildCat
Posts: 13702
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:53 am
Location: The 33rd Ward, Chicago
Has thanked: 30 times
Been thanked: 312 times

Re: TERF

Post by WildCat » Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:06 pm

The problem with "it's a social construct" is the term is so broad it's meaningless. Pretty much everything is a social construct, even murder.
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

User avatar
Doctor X
Posts: 67118
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom
Has thanked: 3321 times
Been thanked: 2098 times

Re: TERF

Post by Doctor X » Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:35 pm

Save something like a murder is a "matter of fact" in that you have someone dead from causes unnatural. What is "social construct" is the reaction to said fact--what is or is not justifiable homicide, the reaction to it, is it a crime society punishes or the family punishes, blah blah blah.

With gender or any other body image concept, you do not have a "matter of fact."

"But she looks like a girl. She's got boobs!"

But "she" considers herself a "he." That may go against a "social construct" which makes the claim seem "weird" even "contrary to fact"--"but . . . BOOBS!"--but there is no "fact" behind it.

Now, if I bludgeon this orphan to death and claim "self-defense" that will go against the "social construct" of self-defense. Many will raise that it is also a "matter" of fact since he was tied to that chair and I have this axe handle but HE WAS LOOKING AT ME!!!!

I felt threatened.

The fact remains he is dead.

Did I type that out loud?

Image

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

WS CHAMPIONS X3!!! NBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup! SB CHAMPIONS X5!!!!!
AL East Champs!!

User avatar
WildCat
Posts: 13702
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:53 am
Location: The 33rd Ward, Chicago
Has thanked: 30 times
Been thanked: 312 times

Re: TERF

Post by WildCat » Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:04 am

Doctor X wrote:Save something like a murder is a "matter of fact" in that you have someone dead from causes unnatural.
No, that's not what murder is. Murder is a death caused by another person that is illegal, and legal systems are definitely a social construct.
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

User avatar
Doctor X
Posts: 67118
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom
Has thanked: 3321 times
Been thanked: 2098 times

Re: TERF

Post by Doctor X » Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:53 am

WildCat wrote:
Doctor X wrote:Save something like a murder is a "matter of fact" in that you have someone dead from causes unnatural.
No, that's not what murder is. Murder is a death caused by another person that is illegal, and legal systems are definitely a social construct.
And you are wrong again.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

WS CHAMPIONS X3!!! NBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup! SB CHAMPIONS X5!!!!!
AL East Champs!!

User avatar
WildCat
Posts: 13702
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:53 am
Location: The 33rd Ward, Chicago
Has thanked: 30 times
Been thanked: 312 times

Re: TERF

Post by WildCat » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:17 pm

Doctor X wrote:
WildCat wrote:
Doctor X wrote:Save something like a murder is a "matter of fact" in that you have someone dead from causes unnatural.
No, that's not what murder is. Murder is a death caused by another person that is illegal, and legal systems are definitely a social construct.
And you are wrong again.

--J.D.
I am correct, and you will not be able to find any definition of "murder" that doesn't include language referring to laws. I guess this is when you start posting anime pictures to distract from your being wrong.
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj