2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

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Re: 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:31 pm

WildCat wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:Not historically.

Yes, historically. From its inception, you can't have Marxism without identity politics. It is based on identity politics. pitting one class against the other. The proletariat vs. the bourgeoisie vs. the ruling class.


Well OK then, but if the "identity" is anything other than working class, it isn't Marxism.
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Re: 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:32 pm

And another thing.


Are Starbucks and bank of America fascist?


Yes. :mrgreen:
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Re: 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby RCC: Act II » Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:52 pm

WildCat wrote:
Do you really think that antifa only attacks fascists? Do you know how broadly they define fascism? Even if they do run across a real, actual fascist (and the demand for fascists greatly outstrips the supply) do you think they are justified in attacking them?


I ignore all arguments via youtube. It is just a version of the common wingnut tactic of making claims hard to nail down and rebut.

I said there is no such thing as antifa as you seem to think there is in your paranoid fantasies.

I can not speak as to individual groups that are identified by you (or them) as being antifa. What makes this retarded is thinking these groups are part of a conspiracy. This is how people like you talk yourself into attacking peaceful protesters.

I'm an anti-fascist. I'm about as concerned about a nazi being punched for advocating nazi shit as I am about a child molester being punched for advocating child rape. It really isn't high on my list of injustices.

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Re: 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby RCC: Act II » Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:59 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Well OK then, but if the "identity" is anything other than working class, it isn't Marxism.


Eh. So many people with axes to grind have distorted any term having anything to do with Marx that getting into the fine points is kinda pointless. It has more to do with viewing any issue through the lens of economic/social class than supporting any particular class.

Identity politics is a bit more broad.

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Re: 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby Witness » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:35 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote:Blame the French (Derrida, Foucault, Marcuse). :)
Two out of three, you can do better. :BigGrin3:

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Re: 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:58 am

:doh:
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Re: 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby gnome » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:10 am

You can wish for an open border at some vague point in the future when circumstances are somehow favorable to it. It doesn't actually reveal a lot about what your policy would be now.

For example, I dream of a world without nuclear weapons. That doesn't mean I believe in unilateral disarmament. And yet that is the logic ed applies to Clinton.

Identity politics are neither inherently Marxist nor even inherently left. An example--how many people on the right engage in politics around being Christian? Identity politics is any time someone appeals to a group affiliation to connect with voters. Partisanship itself is identity politics. I agree we could use less of it and look more at issues. I also think candidates should campaign on their own merits instead of their opponents' flaws, and that everyone should have ponies.
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Re: 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby gnome » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:11 am

Mentat wrote:Yes?


That's not a property inherent to the ideology as I understand it.
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Re: 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby Doctor X » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:41 am

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Re: 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby ed » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:31 pm

gnome wrote: that is the logic ed applies to Clinton.



?

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Re: 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby gnome » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:13 pm

ed wrote:
gnome wrote: that is the logic ed applies to Clinton.



?

She is elementally repellent. There is no particular logic to it. It is born of years of observation. It is true. There is no discussion possible.


And yet what you offer as evidence still has to stand up to reason. If you claim there is no particular reason, and that you've just decided so in your gut, then that's you. Just don't argue it's been objectively demonstrated.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:15 pm

gnome wrote: And yet what you offer as evidence still has to stand up to reason.


Every cell of your body is screaming NO NO NO and he speaks of reason.

Right ed? :BigGrin3:
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Re: 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby WildCat » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:24 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
WildCat wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:Not historically.

Yes, historically. From its inception, you can't have Marxism without identity politics. It is based on identity politics. pitting one class against the other. The proletariat vs. the bourgeoisie vs. the ruling class.


Well OK then, but if the "identity" is anything other than working class, it isn't Marxism.

Yes, it is. It's just adapted to different societies and different times. Women's rights weren't really a concern of Marx.
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Re: 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby WildCat » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:30 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
WildCat wrote:
Do you really think that antifa only attacks fascists? Do you know how broadly they define fascism? Even if they do run across a real, actual fascist (and the demand for fascists greatly outstrips the supply) do you think they are justified in attacking them?


I ignore all arguments via youtube. It is just a version of the common wingnut tactic of making claims hard to nail down and rebut.

I said there is no such thing as antifa as you seem to think there is in your paranoid fantasies.

I can not speak as to individual groups that are identified by you (or them) as being antifa. What makes this retarded is thinking these groups are part of a conspiracy. This is how people like you talk yourself into attacking peaceful protesters.

I'm an anti-fascist. I'm about as concerned about a nazi being punched for advocating nazi shit as I am about a child molester being punched for advocating child rape. It really isn't high on my list of injustices.

I present video evidence of antifa acting as I said they do and you refuse to watch it so you can continue to fool yourself. If you had bothered watching the videos you'd see that the only people attacking peaceful protesters were the antifa you think so highly of. And 99.9% of the people they attack are not Nazis, not KKK, not white supremacists, not fascists - they're reporters, Trump supporters, free speech supporters, and generally anyone they don't like which is basically everyone to the right of Mao.

And here you are acting like the textbook definition of a useful idiot, tacitly supporting them because "who could be in favor of fascism?"

And when did I ever say these groups were part of a conspiracy? That's entirely a strawman of your own construction.
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Re: 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby WildCat » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:32 pm

gnome wrote:You can wish for an open border at some vague point in the future when circumstances are somehow favorable to it. It doesn't actually reveal a lot about what your policy would be now.

For example, I dream of a world without nuclear weapons. That doesn't mean I believe in unilateral disarmament. And yet that is the logic ed applies to Clinton.

Identity politics are neither inherently Marxist nor even inherently left. An example--how many people on the right engage in politics around being Christian? Identity politics is any time someone appeals to a group affiliation to connect with voters. Partisanship itself is identity politics. I agree we could use less of it and look more at issues. I also think candidates should campaign on their own merits instead of their opponents' flaws, and that everyone should have ponies.

And if a politician says they dream of a world without nuclear weapons and proceeds to champion policies leading to unilateral disarmament?
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Re: 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby RCC: Act II » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:51 pm

WildCat wrote:I present video evidence of antifa acting as I said they do and you refuse to watch it so you can continue to fool yourself. If you had bothered watching the videos you'd see that the only people attacking peaceful protesters were the antifa you think so highly of. And 99.9% of the people they attack are not Nazis, not KKK, not white supremacists, not fascists - they're reporters, Trump supporters, free speech supporters, and generally anyone they don't like which is basically everyone to the right of Mao.

I'm not watching videos because they are notoriously unreliable and I'm not about to spend one second trying to figure out if they are what they claim to be or otherwise badly distorted and out of context.

And when did I ever say these groups were part of a conspiracy? .


When you call it "antifa" and judge it as a group, that is what you are doing. Otherwise you would be addressing disparate groups of people on not imputing the conduct to the whole.

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Re: 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:55 pm

WildCat wrote:Yes, it is. It's just adapted to different societies and different times. Women's rights weren't really a concern of Marx.


So you admit you're wrong about "identity politics"?
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Re: 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby sparks » Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:07 pm

WC admitting he's wrong about something would be...nice.

We will not have any of that!
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Re: 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby gnome » Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:16 pm

WildCat wrote:
gnome wrote:You can wish for an open border at some vague point in the future when circumstances are somehow favorable to it. It doesn't actually reveal a lot about what your policy would be now.

For example, I dream of a world without nuclear weapons. That doesn't mean I believe in unilateral disarmament. And yet that is the logic ed applies to Clinton.

Identity politics are neither inherently Marxist nor even inherently left. An example--how many people on the right engage in politics around being Christian? Identity politics is any time someone appeals to a group affiliation to connect with voters. Partisanship itself is identity politics. I agree we could use less of it and look more at issues. I also think candidates should campaign on their own merits instead of their opponents' flaws, and that everyone should have ponies.

And if a politician says they dream of a world without nuclear weapons and proceeds to champion policies leading to unilateral disarmament?


Then your evidence is the policies, not the earlier statement... and if I argue that those policies do not necessarily lead to unilateral disarmament, you can't use my earlier statement as evidence that they would.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: 2020 Dem presidential candidate speculation thread.

Postby Doctor X » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:41 pm

So who is the Dems going to run, the Marxist, the Leninist, the Maoist, or Stalinist?

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Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
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