Getting rid of statues etc OTHER THAN Confederates.

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Re: Getting rid of statues etc OTHER THAN Confederates.

Post by Morrie » Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:21 am

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Re: Getting rid of statues etc OTHER THAN Confederates.

Post by Doctor X » Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:54 am

Soooooo . . . everyone in 1492 . . . were . . . just . . . going to places, enslaving, raping, and slaughtering everyone?

The problem is that Back in the Day, when, if, you wanted to listen to music you either had to turn over the record or get up and go to someplace, history was taught very, very expurgated. This was a general tendency. Margaret "Gone with Sherman Who Fucks Up Your Shit" Mitchell remarked that she did not know the South lost the Civil War until she was a teenager--"history" classes sort of . . . well . . . skipped over the last year and a half the same way history classes from the 70s and 80s devoted about a paragraph to Vietnam.

Meanwhile, In'juns slaughtered and scalped White Women, there really were no black people in the West, and Columbus "sailed the ocean blue" to prove the world is round. I can recall seeing an OLD cartoon where they sang:
Various Now That I Think of it Jewish Looking Dudes [In Baritone--Ed.] The Earth is flat like the top of your hat!

Columbus [In tenor.--Ed.] It is round! I know it! I know!
soon followed by Rocket Robin Hood and Davy and Goliath Kill Queers [Citation needed.--Ed.]

So people grew up with this. The "gone to college" is a real thing where everyone, at some point, learned that much of what they learned "as a kid" was unmitigated bullshit. Sure, sometimes LIBURRALL or Religious Conservative professors tried to pour an equal amount of bullshit in another way, but the whole point of being a sophomore is to declare, "wait, what?"

Culturally, things changed. One of the things "Spaghetti Westerns" showed was that "Da West" was dirty. However, I cannot remember it, but there was an infamous "Cowboys 'n Indians" film with KHAAAAAAAANNNNNN!!!!! as an Indian which is noted for being perhaps the first 'murican film to depict the Indians as, well, you know, getting screwed. Prior to that time, "Good Indians" were like Tonto who "submitted" to the White Man.

He knew his place.

The problem is in letting go of these prejudices and errors in understanding, there is also the extreme "OTHER" that rants and raves like conspiracy theorists. The ones who think because Lincoln was not 100% behind racial and gender equality he must be cast into hell.

THEN, you add the "White-Washing": the "Lost Cause" for the South; The "Great Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere" for the Japanese; "Manifest Destiny to Bring JESUS to the Savages and, Well, Get California"; which creates a whole large pile of suck.

I am reminded of martial arts mythology: I wish I could credit the person who observed that, with each retelling of the story, "does not the rock The Master lifted get bigger, it was not one, but two, but twenty 'brigands' he single-handedly defeated" all the way to being bitten in the ankle by a squirrel becomes punching out a tiger. Well, Mas Oyama is "cited" for "punching a bull to death." I have the Japanese [Dutch--Ed.] Original version of it. They dragged a near-dead old bull, propped it up in front of Mas Oyama, and he, like, hit it.

He showed the film to John Blumen who winced, then Oyama sort of realized that, okay, this is stupid and we should not speak of it again. Yet I am sure if I search he will be credited with killing FOUR bulls!

Oyama is an interesting case in revisionist history: he was Korean during a time in Japan where being black in Atlanta was as popular. So he "hid" his status. As did the wrestler who made television possible in Japan. But that is another story.

They are all things people grew up on. Some Loons try to tell you the ridiculous, and we fight that. Part of being Skeptics. Yet, with research, we learn that, no, Columbus did not try to "prove the Earth is round," he was a mercenary in the true sense of the word, fudged his data, and had no problem knowing that his men needed a good raping and pillaging because God was On His Side.

Jackson makes Trump appear Saintly. Hell, he makes JFK and Wilson appear tolerant. Did you know JFK was racist? Not nearly as racist as his brother who had no problem demanding why "this Jew" was allowed in the White House.

Consider this, though. Hitler [ :godwin: --Ed.]--Shhh! And when did you learn to use smilies? [Spirit of progressive thinking.--Ed.] would be a Cunt today as he would be in 1787 though perhaps he would be ignored back then.

Lincoln, if raised today, would he be "as racist" as he was which, in context, was "a lot less than most?"

[ZZZzzzzZZZzzzzz--Ed.]

Take each thing in context. Other than Brain Washed Penn State alumni, few disagree with the removal of Joe Paterno's statues. Take the opportunity educate what Columbus did. George Washington, for all of his foibles, did do a singular great thing: he stepped down after two terms and refused to be a king. He could have continued. Imagine the mess. How many politicians would do that? Very, very few.

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Jeremiah, who was a bull frog, told me so.

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Re: Getting rid of statues etc OTHER THAN Confederates.

Post by Anaxagoras » Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:57 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote:Mayor DeBlasio (NYC) announced he wants to get rid of Grant's Tomb.

Not because there is a respectful depiction of Robert E Lee surrendering, or because Grant owned slaves, but because he once said something bad about Jews.

So you see he was literally Hitler. You don't want literal Hitler's tomb in your town do you?
In that case we should definitely get rid of any statue of FDR.

Grant's order was misguided but it was for a military reason. Not as bad as Japanese internment.
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Re: Getting rid of statues etc OTHER THAN Confederates.

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:31 pm

I'll spin this off to another thread when they start attacking museums and / or burning books.
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Re: Getting rid of statues etc OTHER THAN Confederates.

Post by WildCat » Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:56 pm

Nyarlathotep wrote:But its far eaier to justify murdering them wholesale if they are all evil, so you go ahead and do that.
Was it evil to keep weaker enemy tribes around solely as a source of the tens of thousands of human sacrifices every year that your gods demanded?

Is it evil to capture enemies alive so that they can be slowly tortured to death in front of the entire village?

The latter, btw, was standard practice among North American tribes.
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Re: Getting rid of statues etc OTHER THAN Confederates.

Post by Nyarlathotep » Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:58 pm

So all the tribes practiced human sacrifice eh? Thus justifying slaughtering them all?

How convenient your version of history must be
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Re: Getting rid of statues etc OTHER THAN Confederates.

Post by WildCat » Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:58 pm

Nyarlathotep wrote:So all the tribes practiced human sacrifice eh? Thus justifying slaughtering them all?

How convenient your version of history must be
See the edit.
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Re: Getting rid of statues etc OTHER THAN Confederates.

Post by WildCat » Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:03 pm

Was this evil?
Sometime before first European contact with the Illini (around 1635) the Winnebago, a Siouan people, were in sad shape. Surrounded by war-like Algonquin tribes such as the Fox (Meskwaki), Mascoutens (Fire Nation), Hurons and others, their numbers were greatly reduced. A particularly severe defeat at the hands of the Fox greatly weakened the Winnebago. Then came a crippling epidemic (possibly flux) and starvation followed.

Upon learning of the plight of their northern neighbors, the Illinois sent 500 men loaded with food northward to assist the Winnebagos through their tribulations. The Winnebagos welcomed the Illinois, but during dancing in honor of the Illini, the Winnebagos surprised their guests and killed them. They then made a feast of their rescuers.

Upon learning of this treachery, the Illini dispatched a large war party to avenge their dead. Knowing that the Illinois did not use bark-skinned portable canoes, the Winnebago retreated to an island (in Lake Winnebago?). But the season was advanced. The patient Illini waited until the weather grew colder and the lake froze. They stormed across the ice, fell upon the Winnebago, and killed all but 150 or so who were made slaves.

In time, the Illini released their prisoners who are the forefathers of the surviving Winnebagos. It is possible that not all Winnebago bands were involved in the massacre. By the mid Eighteenth Century, the Winnebagos were once again an independent tribe of the Old Northwest.

Although the Illini had decimated the Winnebago, they had also suffered casualties. Taken with the 500 men lost to treachery, the Illini were in a much weakened state at the worst possible time. The Iroquois had turned their faces toward the Illinois Country.
And shortly after the Illini Indians were slaughtered, every last one of them. By other Indian tribes. Now all that remains is their place names such as the state of Illinois.
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Re: Getting rid of statues etc OTHER THAN Confederates.

Post by Doctor X » Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:59 pm

Do we have statues to the Iroquois involved in the massacres?

Do we have a day honoring the triumphant Iroquois?

I am one of the few who found Jared Diamond's Gun, Germs, and Steel drier than, well, Your Mom. I suspect that, for many, it resides on the same table with A Brief History of Time gathering dust. What I did read prior to switching to something more interesting like Dead Language Vocabulary, was how pretty much every group at some point, somewhere in history, tried to squish another group. Even "idyllic stereotyped primitives." Relevant to your points was the then controversial findings that cannibalism was practiced by the Askanazi ["Anasazi."--Ed.] Indians . . . blah . . . blah . . . prion research. That challenged a myth about the Peaceful Anasazi. I am sure I have made the point that what is fascinating about the Hebrew Epic being largely mythic is that they made up stories of genocide.

Fine.

The sins of the past do not justify other sins of the past. That "The Indians" were MEAN to one another does not justify Columbus' behavior.

I am reminded of a discussion on this topic, specifically the racist history of Tom Yawkey, the real curse to the Red Sox, where a Black Sports Talking Head raised the issues with MLK--plagiarist and philanderer--akin to Lincoln's sometimes less-than-Ready-for-Prime-Time views on minorities.

"I think he was a net positive." is how he described MLK. Yawkey was not.

Was Columbus?

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Re: Getting rid of statues etc OTHER THAN Confederates.

Post by Pyrrho » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:01 pm

The question is why the savages didn't get statues erected in their honor, de rigeur for other perpetrators of massacres.

But, seriously, this is all a "tu quoque" argument not relevant to the questions of whether or not Christopher Columbus should have a holiday, whether or not Italians should care, or how far society is going to go in this trend of statue removals instead of addressing the issue of equality in any meaningful, lasting way. We could take down every statue in the country today and we'd be right where we are tomorrow.
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Re: Getting rid of statues etc OTHER THAN Confederates.

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:01 pm

Can we all agree fuck Columbus sideways with a rototiller, and move on? Please?

As for Columbus atop the column in Columbus Circle, NYC. It's not like it's in any sense a real likeness of anybody.
And Christopher Columbus had fuck all to do with New York City.

From now on (and retroactively forever) it's a statue of a prominent past New Yorker, Josephus Columbus.

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He was giving a speech at a civil rights rally when he was shot at what is now Columbus Circle. :coolspecs:

Right, ed? :P



Back on track now.

Because the issue is never the issue ...

California Catholic school under fire for removing and relocating 'alienating' religious statues (Fox)
A California Catholic school is facing a backlash from parents after officials took down some religious statues -- including one of Mary and baby Jesus -- over concerns that they were “alienating” prospective students.

...
Ya Allah! That is more like it! :Muhammad:
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Re: Getting rid of statues etc OTHER THAN Confederates.

Post by WildCat » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:04 pm

Doctor X wrote:The sins of the past do not justify other sins of the past. That "The Indians" were MEAN to one another does not justify Columbus' behavior.
Whoosh goes the point right over your head!

If we are going to judge Columbus by modern standards shouldn't we also judge the Indians by modern standards?

And yes, there are statues all over the country honoring Indians. And place names for states, rivers, lakes, streets, cities, towns, and counties.
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Re: Getting rid of statues etc OTHER THAN Confederates.

Post by Pyrrho » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:06 pm

Mary gave birth to Jesus, who started the Christian religion, and who literally whipped legitimate businessmen with cords. One need only consider the Crusades before agreeing that all statues and anything else honoring Jesus Christ should be removed, along with rosaries and stuff pertaining to Mary.

See how easy it is? Heh.

We're going to have to rename Columbus, Ohio, though.
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Re: Getting rid of statues etc OTHER THAN Confederates.

Post by WildCat » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:07 pm

Pyrrho wrote:The question is why the savages didn't get statues erected in their honor, de rigeur for other perpetrators of massacres.
But they do!

https://goo.gl/maps/SxineinxiDS2
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Re: Getting rid of statues etc OTHER THAN Confederates.

Post by Pyrrho » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:08 pm

WildCat wrote:
Doctor X wrote:The sins of the past do not justify other sins of the past. That "The Indians" were MEAN to one another does not justify Columbus' behavior.
Whoosh goes the point right over your head!

If we are going to judge Columbus by modern standards shouldn't we also judge the Indians by modern standards?

And yes, there are statues all over the country honoring Indians. And place names for states, rivers, lakes, streets, cities, towns, and counties.
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/tuquoque.html
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Re: Getting rid of statues etc OTHER THAN Confederates.

Post by WildCat » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:09 pm

And here's the monument to the Indians that won the Battle of Little Bighorn: https://www.nps.gov/libi/indian-memorial.htm

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Re: Getting rid of statues etc OTHER THAN Confederates.

Post by WildCat » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:10 pm

Pyrrho wrote:
WildCat wrote:
Doctor X wrote:The sins of the past do not justify other sins of the past. That "The Indians" were MEAN to one another does not justify Columbus' behavior.
Whoosh goes the point right over your head!

If we are going to judge Columbus by modern standards shouldn't we also judge the Indians by modern standards?

And yes, there are statues all over the country honoring Indians. And place names for states, rivers, lakes, streets, cities, towns, and counties.
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/tuquoque.html
It's not a fallacy because I'm not using one to justify the other.
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Re: Getting rid of statues etc OTHER THAN Confederates.

Post by Pyrrho » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:15 pm

I guess the modern parlance would be "whataboutism". Arguing about statues honoring indigenous peoples is irrelevant to whether or not Columbus merits a statue or a holiday.
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Re: Getting rid of statues etc OTHER THAN Confederates.

Post by WildCat » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:24 pm

Pyrrho wrote:I guess the modern parlance would be "whataboutism". Arguing about statues honoring indigenous peoples is irrelevant to whether or not Columbus merits a statue or a holiday.
It's not irrelevant if we are going to replace Columbus Day with a day for the Indians.

We should instead replace it with a day condemning both Columbus and the Indians, or not have a day at all, if we are going to be morally consistent.

Isn't replacing one for the other "whataboutism"?

As I said, if you're going to one group of people from the past by modern standards you must judge all of them by modern standards, otherwise you're just replacing one monster for another.
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Re: Getting rid of statues etc OTHER THAN Confederates.

Post by Doctor X » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:26 pm

Pyrrho wrote:We could take down every statue in the country today and we'd be right where we are tomorrow.
Except for one thing: there would no longer be the intentional assumption that The State holds a particular viewpoint even if it should not. See Former Chief Justice and Current Certifiable Loon Roy Moore's attempts to get a Ten Commandments monument outside his courthouse. "Yeah, freedom of religion but we all know what the Right Religion is!" "Normal People" believe _____.

Why confederate statues tended to arise around court houses in the South during the Jim Crow then Civil Rights eras. Removal of those removes the "unstated but known" intent: "yeah, equal protection, but know your play, boy!"

I emphasize with the more extreme view that borders on the silly PC. Long ago I would joke that renaming a "man hole" a "person hole" is all fine and dandy, but does it result in equal pay? No, it is The Man patting the feminist on the head then telling her to make a sandwich. Same as silly names like "chairperson." Calling an actress an "actor" does not get rid of the "casting couch."

However, you open a veritable can of worms. Back and the Day, when Italians were just "greasy wops" whom the Drunk Irish looked down upon, Columbus was a symbol of "hey, if not for US WE would not have a country!" You can find similar ethnic "great symbols." As a Wee Spud I was taken to a Polaski Parade. Great pictures of the Heroic General riding in front of troops to Mel Gibson asthmatic camel for his gay choices in music and bicycles! Some Kid was on a horse dressed like him.

Me Dad turned to me and whispered, "he got blown off his horse by a canon!" But other than Thadeus Koschizsomethingko, [Thaddeus Kosciuszko--Ed.] the Poles did not have anyone. Casimir Funk? He discovered . . . vitamins . . . Not in America? There was a Civil War hero who was denied a Congressional Medal of Honor because no one could spell his name [Włodzimierz Krzyżanowski: Citation Needed--Ed.].

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