Massacre in Las Vegas

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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Postby xouper » Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:58 am

asthmatic camel wrote:
Doctor X wrote:The London victims run down and slashed, including a police officer, should have had the opportunity to responsibly have the ability to defend themselves as best as they could rather being sheep to the comfortable delusion of safety. Notice I write "responsible."


With the utmost respect and humbility, how much use do you think firearms would have been against the London Bridge and Manchester Arena attacks?

None at all.


While it is true that there will sometimes be circumstances where a gun is not useful in self defense, that does not refute the general concept of using a gun for self defense, nor does it refute the argument in favor of responsible individuals making that choice for themselves whether to have a gun for self defense.


asthmatic camel wrote:My argument is that arming assholes is idiotic.


You might have a point there.

So is letting assholes drive cars or run parliament.

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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Postby Pyrrho » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:50 pm

Found an explanation of bump stocks that I could understand.

https://plus.google.com/u/0/+RobertHans ... x31C47KnNZ

When you pull the trigger, Newton's Law says that the bullet leaving the muzzle means the rifle has to be pushed back a little bit. This is called recoil. (Some people call it "kick". They shouldn't. The right word is recoil.) So if you pull the trigger back just enough to trip the sear, the entire firearm will be pushed back a minute fraction of an inch -- but your finger won't be, since it's not attached to the weapon. So the weapon recoils, but your finger doesn't. If you were to push the weapon forwards, the just-reset trigger will be pressed against your finger, and your finger will trip the trigger, and it'll go bang again.

Usually, bump fire is a sign you're a bad shooter. It means you don't have proper control over the weapon, or your trigger pull is way too light and cringing. (You want a firm, deliberate pull.) Bump fire from newbies isn't exactly common, but it's not unheard of, either.

A bump fire stock takes this defect of marksmanship and exploits it to mimic the effects of fully-automatic fire. A bump fire stock is effectively just a spring set at the end of the weapon's normal stock, with a plastic cover over the entire apparatus to make it not like the cheap piece of crap that it is.

You pull the trigger. The weapon recoils. The spring compresses. Then the spring expands, pushing the rifle forwards against your finger. The weapon fires. The weapon recoils. And so on and so on. And it's all technically legal, because the sear in your weapon is still semiautomatic.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Postby ed » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:42 pm

It is legal because a trigger pull is necessary for each discharge. This is a very important point because this is the distinction in the regulation.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Postby gnome » Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:05 pm

I can see why there's interest in making it illegal--seems to me it increases a semi automatic's effective rate of fire and decreases accuracy, not features usually desired by someone firing their weapon lawfully. Unless someone can tell me more.

What I wonder is if it's futile. It seems like something that could probably be homemade and that enforcement would thus be quite difficult.

I'm talking out of my ass though, I'll let people that really know about this stuff comment now.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Postby Doctor X » Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:33 pm

asthmatic camel wrote:With the utmost respect and humbility, how much use do you think firearms would have been against the London Bridge and Manchester Arena attacks?

None at all.


You have no way of knowing that; however, the policeman might have found stopping the one who killed him a bit easier if he could have confronted him more than 20 feet away with a side-arm.

My argument is that arming assholes is idiotic.


They are already armed in your country.

As the two cases you cite more than demonstrate.

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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Postby ed » Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:33 pm

You can teach youself to fire very fast. Very very fast. Regulating speed of fire is a dangerous precident. For example, if firing at 300 rounds per mi ute is too fast fot "llawful" use, isnt that intrinsicto theweapon? Why shouldnt the weapon be illegal?

See what I mean
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Postby xouper » Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:39 pm

asthmatic camel wrote:Tell the victims of the Vegas shooting about freedom and fun. Tell their friends and families: I'm sure they'll all be convinced.


Here's one victim's answer, from a TV interview:

https://conservativetribune.com/man-loses-wife-shocking-plans/ wrote:. . . Tony Burditus and his wife, Denise, were attending the Route 91 Harvest music festival when Stephen Paddock opened fire from a 32nd floor hotel room above them. While attempting to flee from the rampage, Denise became one of 58 people who were killed. . . .

“You lost your wife,” Hannity said. “What is the right thing for the country to do and how to handle it?”

“It was a tragedy, Sunday night,” the grieving husband replied. “I still will never give up my rights.


I'd say he's convinced.

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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Postby ed » Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:44 pm

asthmatic camel wrote:So you're a bad guy? ;)

Seriously, it's very, very difficult to get hold of firearms, legal or not in, in Britain and the penalties for illegal possession are severe. For example, should one of my air rifles be found to be over the 12ft/lb limit, I'm in for an automatic five year jail term. Gun related crime here is so rare that every case makes the headlines. Judging by what Pyrrho and the rest of you say, it's so common in the USA that only mass or celebrity shootings make the news.

I'm kinda happy with the way things are over here.

Does that jail term seem reasonable to you? Wht does one get for rape?
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Postby Mentat » Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:45 pm

asthmatic camel wrote:My argument is that arming assholes is idiotic.


In the Las Vegas attack, there was no prior warning that this guy was an asshole though. Or the dangerous kind of crazy.

In my joke that Abdul took waaaay too seriously, I made fun of exactly that. It would be great if we knew ahead of time who the troublemakers were and banned them from owning a firearm. But for the most part, all we have to go on is criminal history as an indicator.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Postby Grammatron » Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:00 pm

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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Postby Mentat » Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:03 pm

The media doesn't talk about Chicago? Damn wouldn't shut up about it during the tail end of the election. Complaining about crime in Chicago is like complaining about the traffic in DC. Everybody knows it sucks and there are periodic segments on it, but it doesn't need to be on the national news every morning.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Postby Grammatron » Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:06 pm

Mentat wrote:The media doesn't talk about Chicago? Damn wouldn't shut up about it during the tail end of the election.


You're right, the media does talk about it. But the shocking nature of the Las Vegas massacre certainly leads to a different coverage and demand of results.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Postby Mentat » Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:13 pm

Grammatron wrote:
Mentat wrote:The media doesn't talk about Chicago? Damn wouldn't shut up about it during the tail end of the election.


You're right, the media does talk about it. But the shocking nature of the Las Vegas massacre certainly leads to a different coverage and demand of results.


Well yeah, but that's the nature of how humans react. We treat sudden well defined episodic events separately from systemic trends. That's not specific to the media or politics, they are just responding to how viewers frame information and how we have conversations.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Postby gnome » Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:32 pm

ed wrote:
asthmatic camel wrote:So you're a bad guy? ;)

Seriously, it's very, very difficult to get hold of firearms, legal or not in, in Britain and the penalties for illegal possession are severe. For example, should one of my air rifles be found to be over the 12ft/lb limit, I'm in for an automatic five year jail term. Gun related crime here is so rare that every case makes the headlines. Judging by what Pyrrho and the rest of you say, it's so common in the USA that only mass or celebrity shootings make the news.

I'm kinda happy with the way things are over here.

Does that jail term seem reasonable to you? Wht does one get for rape?


Three months.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Postby asthmatic camel » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:31 pm

gnome wrote:
ed wrote:
asthmatic camel wrote:So you're a bad guy? ;)

Seriously, it's very, very difficult to get hold of firearms, legal or not in, in Britain and the penalties for illegal possession are severe. For example, should one of my air rifles be found to be over the 12ft/lb limit, I'm in for an automatic five year jail term. Gun related crime here is so rare that every case makes the headlines. Judging by what Pyrrho and the rest of you say, it's so common in the USA that only mass or celebrity shootings make the news.

I'm kinda happy with the way things are over here.

Does that jail term seem reasonable to you? Wht does one get for rape?


Three months.


Incorrect. Between five five years to life for rape. Source.

ed, I think that jail term is ludicrous but it shows how seriously firearms are dealt with in the UK. Any air rifle over 12 ft/lb power requires a licence and is treated as a firearm. For air pistols the limit is 6 ft/lb. Nobody buys them because it costs a load of money to get a licence and there's virtually no market for second-hand air weapons over the legal limit.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Postby gnome » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:43 pm

"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Postby WildCat » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:19 am

asthmatic camel wrote:With the utmost respect and humbility, how much use do you think firearms would have been against the London Bridge and Manchester Arena attacks?

A firearm sure would have been handy to the people in the London Bridge attack when the assailants jumped out of the wrecked car and started stabbing people.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Postby Pyrrho » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:31 am

WildCat wrote:
asthmatic camel wrote:With the utmost respect and humbility, how much use do you think firearms would have been against the London Bridge and Manchester Arena attacks?

A firearm sure would have been handy to the people in the London Bridge attack when the assailants jumped out of the wrecked car and started stabbing people.

Yeah...and chances are the assailants would have been shooting people instead.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Postby Pyrrho » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:36 am

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/ ... he-victims

A 20-year-old aspiring nurse who fell into her high school sweetheart's arms. A Navy veteran haunted by the memories of war. A mechanic who loved the outdoors and died holding the hand of a stranger. A mom of four with a newborn at home, still out on maternity leave. A husband celebrating his anniversary, taking a bullet for his wife.

Fifty-eight people died in the Sunday night attack on a country music concert on the Las Vegas Strip, not counting the shooter, and more than 480 were injured. It was the worst mass shooting in modern U.S. history.

On Thursday the Clark County Coroner released the official list of those who died.

Here is what we know about them.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Postby Grammatron » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:52 am

Mentat wrote:
Grammatron wrote:
Mentat wrote:The media doesn't talk about Chicago? Damn wouldn't shut up about it during the tail end of the election.


You're right, the media does talk about it. But the shocking nature of the Las Vegas massacre certainly leads to a different coverage and demand of results.


Well yeah, but that's the nature of how humans react. We treat sudden well defined episodic events separately from systemic trends. That's not specific to the media or politics, they are just responding to how viewers frame information and how we have conversations.


That's rather the point I was trying to make to AC.
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