Massacre in Las Vegas

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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by Mentat » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:59 am

Grammatron wrote:
Mentat wrote:
Grammatron wrote:
Mentat wrote:The media doesn't talk about Chicago? Damn wouldn't shut up about it during the tail end of the election.
You're right, the media does talk about it. But the shocking nature of the Las Vegas massacre certainly leads to a different coverage and demand of results.
Well yeah, but that's the nature of how humans react. We treat sudden well defined episodic events separately from systemic trends. That's not specific to the media or politics, they are just responding to how viewers frame information and how we have conversations.
That's rather the point I was trying to make to AC.
You aren't going to convince a Brit unless you frame it as how it protects them from the Welsh menace.

AC, you're being chased down by some hoodlum bastard from some abomination of a hell hole of a town that involves gurgling twenty syllables to pronounce. Which would you defend yourself with: a night stick, a cane, a knife, or an AR 15?

Now you understand America.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by WildCat » Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:24 am

Pyrrho wrote:
WildCat wrote:
asthmatic camel wrote:With the utmost respect and humbility, how much use do you think firearms would have been against the London Bridge and Manchester Arena attacks?
A firearm sure would have been handy to the people in the London Bridge attack when the assailants jumped out of the wrecked car and started stabbing people.
Yeah...and chances are the assailants would have been shooting people instead.
Gun on gun is a better chance than knife on unarmed at all.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by asthmatic camel » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:50 am

I disagree. You can run from a knife attacker or, if you have the required martial arts skills, disarm him. Not available options if someone points a gun at you.
Shit happens. The older you get, the more often shit happens. So you have to try not to give a shit even when you do. Because, if you give too many shits, you've created your own shit creek and there's no way out other than swimming through the shit. Oh, and fuck.

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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by Grammatron » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:55 am

asthmatic camel wrote:I disagree. You can run from a knife attacker or,
You can certainly try.
if you have the required martial arts skills, disarm him.
That's a myth.
Not available options if someone points a gun at you.
If both parties have guns the odds of the defender goes up, is all Wildcat was saying.

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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by asthmatic camel » Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:05 am

It's no myth. Karate, "The way of the empty hand", teaches you how to defend yourself against an assailant armed with knives, broken bottles etc. It doesn't turn you into Batman, nor does it guarantee that you won't get injured but it does give you a chance if running isn't an option.

It's useless against a gunman.
Shit happens. The older you get, the more often shit happens. So you have to try not to give a shit even when you do. Because, if you give too many shits, you've created your own shit creek and there's no way out other than swimming through the shit. Oh, and fuck.

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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by WildCat » Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:12 am

asthmatic camel wrote:I disagree. You can run from a knife attacker or, if you have the required martial arts skills, disarm him. Not available options if someone points a gun at you.
Really? You're going to run away from a crazed 20 year old? Fat chance!

My days of running fast are long gone, but I shoot better than I ever did.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by WildCat » Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:14 am

asthmatic camel wrote:It's no myth. Karate, "The way of the empty hand", teaches you how to defend yourself against an assailant armed with knives, broken bottles etc. It doesn't turn you into Batman, nor does it guarantee that you won't get injured but it does give you a chance if running isn't an option.

It's useless against a gunman.
Your chances against a young, fit, determined lunatic with a knife are slim to none. Real life isn't Hollywood.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by asthmatic camel » Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:41 am

My chances against a young, fit, determined lunatic with a knife are far better than one armed with gun.
Shit happens. The older you get, the more often shit happens. So you have to try not to give a shit even when you do. Because, if you give too many shits, you've created your own shit creek and there's no way out other than swimming through the shit. Oh, and fuck.

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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by Anaxagoras » Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:59 am

Grammatron wrote:Image
For some reason though, it does seem to work in New York City, at least a lot better than it does in Chicago.

The other day Wildcat posted something about the gangs of Chicago, and I think that might the key to understanding the difference between Chicago and other large cities. There's gangs with 40-50 thousand members there, and that's probably what's driving the crime rate so high.

Is it objectively true that Chicago has "the strictest gun laws in the country"? :notsure:

BTW, Japan has much stricter gun laws than Chicago, and there were only 6 gun-related deaths in the whole country in 2014 (most recent year I could find data for). That's all suicides, homicides and accidents combined, not sure what the breakdown is.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by Doctor X » Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:07 pm

I know a number gentlemen who have over 50 years continuous expertise in "karate." One, who passed away, was a WWII marine.

All of them had gun permits.

"Defense against a knife" and all of that requires continued live training against a knife. Anyone with any experience with such will find himself "slashed" and "stabbed" quite a few times. It takes work, it takes sustained real practice, and, frankly, few do that. Forget about "S3kr1t M00v3s of t3h D34dly"; a huge obstacle is over-coming the natural startle/fear/freeze reactions.

Did anyone in the London Bridge do that training?

Such is fantasy, and, as one venerable teacher acidly reminds people: "buy your black belt extra-long so your family can use it to lower your coffin into the ground!"

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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by Anaxagoras » Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:36 pm

I'm sure Dr. X knows the literal meaning of the word "karate", but for anyone else who might be curious, it means "empty hand".

So any technique that involves any kind of weapon cannot be "karate" by definition.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:05 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:For some reason though, it does seem to work in New York City, at least a lot better than it does in Chicago ...
It's not just a worse problem in Chicago.

There is no NYC neighborhood whose city council member is on the side of the gangs.

Also the NYC charter does not give council members veto power over business in their districts.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by xouper » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:05 pm

Grammatron wrote:
asthmatic camel wrote:I disagree. You can run from a knife attacker . . . Not available options if someone points a gun at you.
If both parties have guns the odds of the defender goes up, is all Wildcat was saying.
Example:
http://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2017/03/armed-robber-indianapolis/ wrote:
Indianapolis: Armed Gas Station Owner Fatally Shoots Armed Robber in Self Defense

March 14, 2017

An armed robber tried to hold up a gas station on the south side of Indianapolis and ended up getting shot dead by the station owner who was working behind the counter.

It all went down last Monday night at around 11:40 p.m. 20-year-old Levi Walker walked into the Phillips 66 gas station on the 3200 block of S. Keystone Ave., produced a gun and started demanding money.

Unfortunately for Walker, the owner of the gas station happened to be packing, too. He drew his firearm and shot Walker at point blank range.
I can cite many more examples of successful self defense against an armed attacked. I can cite even more examples where self defense with a gun gives a clear advantage against unarmed attackers. These are not hypotheticals, they are real people with very real outcomes.

You might suppose that if the owner had simply handed over the money, the robber would have left without anyone getting shot, and while that is often the case, the evidence says that is not always a safe assumption to make.

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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by Doctor X » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:12 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:I'm sure Dr. X knows the literal meaning of the word "karate", but for anyone else who might be curious, it means "empty hand". [Sic--Ed.]
Actually, that is not precisely correct. The term originally referred to "hand" in Okinawa, and with influence from China, became known "Chinese Hand" or 唐手. This is pronounced "karate" and with the rise of Japanese militarism, the Japanese imposed the use of the kanji for "empty" to give 空手 which Americans years later changed to Krotty [Stop that.--Ed.].

These are seen as very separate systems now--nothing like politics and pride to ruin a good thing--but they were always part of a larger idea of offense and defense. This continues with practitioners who train in a number of other systems. A lot of Okinawan practitioners practice traditional weapons. The separation is a bit artificial and a modern thing particularly given that people do not walk around with bos and sais much! A well-known iai-jutsu--sword-draw-cut at real speed--teacher long ago joked that students needed to disabuse themselves from believing they could learn to fight with an umbrella! As another critic put it arguing online with a "ninja"--"you just like to cosplay in a costume with weapons that became obsolete with the invention of the gun!"
Spoiler:
I memorized his parting shot to the NOW IMA IN ALLCAPS screaming "ninja":
Jesus hates you.
I'm raping your mom.
Now go kill yourself.
whenever "ninja" would try to enter in an argument, the guy would dismiss him with the reminder to kill himself. It made me laugh, and it is all about me.
So you are correct that for modern martial arts, people primarily train for unarmed combat since that is the situation. "Armed" means someone with a gun, frankly. Training with weapons may give you a "leg-up" on some idiot who picks up a stick in an alley, but, again, unless you live train, what are you doing? And, no, you cannot walk about with sais, bos, or katana.

When looking at the techniques of karate styles with regards to weapons used "during the time" you see defenses against clubs, short knives, and stuff like that. Erase beliefs about "defense against sword!" of which I have a hilarious story which I will not tangent into.

A lot of the techniques are attacks--forget the Japanese-Wannabe Funakoshi. "Defense" against a knife is attacking the fuck out of the guy immediately.

Great.

What if he already has the knife out and is standing a few feet away?

See the problem?

With all things, against an untrained idiot, sure, it is a help. You may win. Go against a military guy who trains with knives all of the time?

Good luck.

One last anecdote: I met an ex-sniper from the Army. Built like the literal brick-shit-house. We discussed martial arts. I raised some questions: toe-to-toe with about a hundred pounds on me, I would be a fool to try to grapple him. If I were an expert in ground fighting, I might get him assuming he had no idea. This was not the case. I would rather keep away from him assuming I could not simply run "and pick up a rock and smash you in the head!"

So I asked him, "if you had a knife, would you pull it against me?"

"Of course!"

"If you had a side arm and we are at a distance, would you use that?"

"Of course!"

Exactly.

--J.D.
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"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
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Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
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"just like Doc X said." --gnome

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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by asthmatic camel » Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:16 pm

Doctor X wrote:I know a number gentlemen who have over 50 years continuous expertise in "karate." One, who passed away, was a WWII marine.

All of them had gun permits.

"Defense against a knife" and all of that requires continued live training against a knife. Anyone with any experience with such will find himself "slashed" and "stabbed" quite a few times. It takes work, it takes sustained real practice, and, frankly, few do that. Forget about "S3kr1t M00v3s of t3h D34dly"; a huge obstacle is over-coming the natural startle/fear/freeze reactions.

Did anyone in the London Bridge do that training?

Such is fantasy, and, as one venerable teacher acidly reminds people: "buy your black belt extra-long so your family can use it to lower your coffin into the ground!"

--J.D.
The best method of self defense is to stay at home with your doors and windows locked. As I'm now getting on in years, I carry a walking stick with me when I go out. So far as I'm aware it's not classed as a weapon but it'd give me an advantage over a knife man!
Shit happens. The older you get, the more often shit happens. So you have to try not to give a shit even when you do. Because, if you give too many shits, you've created your own shit creek and there's no way out other than swimming through the shit. Oh, and fuck.

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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by Doctor X » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:02 pm

Precisely, but let me then wonder why you are allowed to carry that stick?

I mean, someone else might use that to attack people. People should not carry walking sticks since, unless you have a medical necessity and, in that case a wheelchair is better, there is "no reason for you to" have one.

Again, this is complicated, for there is a "culture" that does not help--a fascination with guns, an unrealistic fascination. Same with knives. Not so much for walking sticks--though I always wanted a sword cane because . . . sword cane!

Oddly enough, some have tried to resurrect some good old self-defense with canes and walking sticks, and why not?

I once wiped out an assailant with a British university scarf.

So whatever works.

Again, the issue is responsible use.

To turn the tables on the Pro-Gun members, same advisor on the use of black belts as funerary accessories, similarly reminds gun owners that if they do NOT train with their weapons--go to courses rather than Inbred Jed's Militia Masturbation Farm--they are utterly useless. In fact, less-than-useless. It is like any "krotty" or "MMA" afficionado who thinks he just became invincible and stays in a "bad situation" or makes it worse. He thinks because he "has a gun" he can be an asshole and/or escalate situations.

To your side, there would be less gang violence is that assholes had to use their bare hands. Scratch that, the cowards would just gang up on an individual.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by xouper » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:30 pm

Doctor X wrote:To turn the tables on the Pro-Gun members, same advisor on the use of black belts as funerary accessories, similarly reminds gun owners that if they do NOT train with their weapons--go to courses rather than Inbred Jed's Militia Masturbation Farm--they are utterly useless. In fact, less-than-useless. It is like any "krotty" or "MMA" afficionado who thinks he just became invincible and stays in a "bad situation" or makes it worse. He thinks because he "has a gun" he can be an asshole and/or escalate situations.
Yes. Exactly. Good advice.

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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by asthmatic camel » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:34 pm

As it happens, I do have a medical necessity to carry a walking stick, so that's not a problem. That said, at the grand old age of 51, I'm still 6'2" and built like a brick shit house after years of landscaping. I'm not an easy target.
Shit happens. The older you get, the more often shit happens. So you have to try not to give a shit even when you do. Because, if you give too many shits, you've created your own shit creek and there's no way out other than swimming through the shit. Oh, and fuck.

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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by Mentat » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:41 pm

Doctor X wrote:Precisely, but let me then wonder why you are allowed to carry that stick?

I mean, someone else might use that to attack people. People should not carry walking sticks since, unless you have a medical necessity and, in that case a wheelchair is better, there is "no reason for you to" have one.

Again, this is complicated, for there is a "culture" that does not help--a fascination with guns, an unrealistic fascination. Same with knives. Not so much for walking sticks--though I always wanted a sword cane because . . . sword cane!

Oddly enough, some have tried to resurrect some good old self-defense with canes and walking sticks, and why not?

I once wiped out an assailant with a British university scarf.

So whatever works.

Again, the issue is responsible use.

To turn the tables on the Pro-Gun members, same advisor on the use of black belts as funerary accessories, similarly reminds gun owners that if they do NOT train with their weapons--go to courses rather than Inbred Jed's Militia Masturbation Farm--they are utterly useless. In fact, less-than-useless. It is like any "krotty" or "MMA" afficionado who thinks he just became invincible and stays in a "bad situation" or makes it worse. He thinks because he "has a gun" he can be an asshole and/or escalate situations.

To your side, there would be less gang violence is that assholes had to use their bare hands. Scratch that, the cowards would just gang up on an individual.

--J.D.
Well said. I would also like to add that having a gun in a society where the criminals have guns is still a greater deterrent than having a melee weapon in a society where the criminals have melee weapons. Especially for the physically vulnerable (eg elderly and handicapped).
It's "pea-can", man.

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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by asthmatic camel » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:25 pm

I disagree and the cold, hard numbers are on my side.

It's your country and you all get a vote so it's up to you.
Shit happens. The older you get, the more often shit happens. So you have to try not to give a shit even when you do. Because, if you give too many shits, you've created your own shit creek and there's no way out other than swimming through the shit. Oh, and fuck.