Massacre in Las Vegas

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corplinx
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by corplinx » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:32 pm

I figured he went postal because of massive gambling debt. I have no idea why a guy partying in vegas, banging an asian girlfriend, getting side action from vegas hookers (which are the best in murica), and getting VIP treatment from casinos; opens fire on an outdoor concert.

Video Poker doesn't make money for the players, it makes money for the casino. In the fog of shit, I would expect the media to repeat something silly like "he made millions playing video poker".

I am still waiting for a solid narrative explaining the story of this.

Even CSI has chimed in trying to explain it away with a "he was trying to set the record" which there is no evidence for.

https://www.csicop.org/specialarticles/ ... ers_motive

The scariest thing about this shooting is that a lone wolf could act in such isolation with so little information, we may be left wondering what happened and only able to conjecture.

People want certainty. We are drawn to it. The lack thereof drives people bonkers.

So even the CSI publishes an article claiming to know the reason why, and they are skeptics.

I agree with the message of that editorial, which is to take the fame out of spree killing; but we really have no idea if "high score" was the motive.

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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by Rob Lister » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:37 pm

Vegas Shooter's Use of Service Elevator May Cost Hotel
Victims and families say Mandalay Bay shouldn't have given access to Stephen Paddock
And they might have a point!

http://www.newser.com/story/251909/vega ... vator.html
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by Anaxagoras » Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:26 am

corplinx wrote:I figured he went postal because of massive gambling debt. I have no idea why a guy partying in vegas, banging an asian girlfriend, getting side action from vegas hookers (which are the best in murica), and getting VIP treatment from casinos; opens fire on an outdoor concert.

Video Poker doesn't make money for the players, it makes money for the casino. In the fog of shit, I would expect the media to repeat something silly like "he made millions playing video poker".
It doesn't make money for the player, but could it be used to "launder" ill-gotten money somehow?
(I don't know, just a thought)
I am still waiting for a solid narrative explaining the story of this.
I think we may never have one. For a skeptic, sometimes the only truly right answer is "I don't know." We can guess of course:
Even CSI has chimed in trying to explain it away with a "he was trying to set the record" which there is no evidence for.

https://www.csicop.org/specialarticles/ ... ers_motive
That's essentially the same argument as in the Politico article. It is not correct to say we "know" his motive, but absent compelling evidence for any other theory, it seems like a reasonable guess to me.
The scariest thing about this shooting is that a lone wolf could act in such isolation with so little information, we may be left wondering what happened and only able to conjecture.

People want certainty. We are drawn to it. The lack thereof drives people bonkers.

So even the CSI publishes an article claiming to know the reason why, and they are skeptics.

I agree with the message of that editorial, which is to take the fame out of spree killing; but we really have no idea if "high score" was the motive.
Skepticism (in the philosophical sense) is the position that we can never be 100% certain of anything and we should make peace with that. But just because we cannot be 100% certain doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make a best guess based on the available evidence. Notoriety is one plausible theory since there doesn't seem to be much evidence for any other explanation. Call it a best guess unless you think you have a better theory.

This though:
In the open letter, these professionals pleaded with members of the media to take specific actions in an effort to discourage future attacks:

1. Don’t name the perpetrator.
2. Don’t use photos or likenesses of the perpetrator.
3. Stop using the names, photos, or likenesses of past perpetrators.
4. Report everything else about these crimes in as much detail as desired.
Maybe in an ideal world (but in an ideal world there wouldn't be mass shootings in the first place).
Doesn't seem realistic in a world with a free press, not without trampling on free speech rights.
Plus, too many people want to use these shootings to serve their own political agenda, and the identity of the perpetrator is often a key part of the narrative they want to convey. If they kept the perpetrator's identity a secret, how many conspiracy theories would that add fuel to? How many people would assume that the perpetrator was a jihadist? (ISIS did try to take credit for it, after all).
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by Ranb » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:09 am

ed wrote:The technical term is "suppressor" because they do not really "silence". :cowbell:
Actually muffler and silencer are the legal terms used in federal law. Suppress better describes what they do though.
ed wrote:To use one you need to use rounds that are subsonic ....
100% false. A silencer that reduces noise by 30 decibels with standard ammo will do the same with subsonic ammo. The end result is less noise due to the smaller powder charge and no sonic boom.
ed wrote:....also the range is reduced.
If Paddock had used subsonic .308 in his AR-10 his effective range would still have been about 600 yards. He was firing from about 400 yards away.
ed wrote:Any idiot can make a suppressor fairly easily. Plans are readily available on the net. It is, of course, illegal without registering it.
I make them as a hobby; they're easier to buy.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by shemp » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:30 am

At last, somebody who really knows guns and can give ed a schooling.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by Skeeve » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:55 pm

Update: FBI documents unsealed in Las Vegas massacre
LAS VEGAS — FBI agents knew the gunman behind the deadliest mass shooting in modern U.S. history left behind big caches of guns, ammunition and explosives when they sought warrants to search his properties and online accounts, according to court documents released Friday.
...
Las Vegas police Officer Aden Ocampo Gomez and FBI spokeswoman Sandra Breault said Friday that they had no update about Paddock’s motive. Both called it an ongoing investigation.
Not a whole lot more to say...
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by WildCat » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:26 pm

At this point I doubt we'll ever have a motive.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by Pyrrho » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:13 pm

Maybe never had a "motive" beyond insanity. As if knowing the motive for one crime ever helps to prevent another crime.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by Skeeve » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:24 pm

Epilogue: MGM Resorts sues more than 1,000 victims of Las Vegas shooting
The owner of a hotel in which Las Vegas shooter Stephen Paddock stayed during his deadly rampage last year, has filed suit against more than 1,000 of his victims in an attempt to avoid liability.

MGM Resorts International filed suit in Nevada and California this week against victims of the 2017 mass shooting – the deadliest in US history. The lawsuit argues that MGM cannot be held responsible for deaths, injuries, or other damages stemming from the shooting, and says all claims against the company “must be dismissed”, according to local reports.

The suit does not seek compensation from victims, but seeks to prevent future lawsuits against the company from moving forward, the Las Vegas Review Journal reported.
Well, good luck on that one...do they have a leg to stand on?
...
More than 450 victims of the shooting sued MGM last November, alleging negligence on the hotel's part. At least four other lawsuits have been filed against the company by victims who were injured at the concert, or by family members of the deceased, according to Reuters.

MGM’s lawsuit cites the 2002 SAFETY Act, which protects companies that deploy certain security technologies from being held liable for claims related to an act of terrorism.
Maybe...However...
The FBI has not defined last year’s shooting as an act of terrorism.
Tough luck.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by Giz » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:10 pm

What exactly was the hotel supposed to have done? Started searching guests?

That will make a nice vacation memory: "welcome to the MGM check-in desk. Please hand over your passport and belongings and assume the position"

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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by WildCat » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:14 pm

Giz wrote:What exactly was the hotel supposed to have done? Started searching guests?

That will make a nice vacation memory: "welcome to the MGM check-in desk. Please hand over your passport and belongings and assume the position"
Yeah, I don't get it. I have never been searched when checking in to a hotel, and I certainly wouldn't patronize any hotel that required me and my belongings to be searched every time I entered!
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by Pyrrho » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:51 pm

Hotels are pretty much a soft target, so it behooves anyone staying in a hotel to maintain situational awareness and have a plan A and plan B.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by Nyarlathotep » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:36 am

Pyrrho wrote:Hotels are pretty much a soft target, so it behooves anyone staying in a hotel to maintain situational awareness and have a plan A and plan B.
Except the victims of the attack were not hotel guests (except maybe coincidentally), they were attending a country music festival across the street. I would bet a good many of them were locals
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by xouper » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:41 am

Nyarlathotep wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:Hotels are pretty much a soft target, so it behooves anyone staying in a hotel to maintain situational awareness and have a plan A and plan B.
Except the victims of the attack were not hotel guests (except maybe coincidentally), they were attending a country music festival across the street. I would bet a good many of them were locals
In case this detail needs repeating: The owner of that hotel also owns the venue where the victims were attending an outdoor concert.

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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:10 am

I feel terrible for the victims, but I don't think it's the hotel's fault.

The only people making out here are the lawyers on both sides.

It would be nice if the company could offer some sort of compensation to the victims (not because it's their fault, but out of compassion) without some sort of admission of legal culpability or major involvement of lawyers, but of course that can't happen in America where every dispute is settled through litigation or threats of litigation.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by Pyrrho » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:21 am

Nyarlathotep wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:Hotels are pretty much a soft target, so it behooves anyone staying in a hotel to maintain situational awareness and have a plan A and plan B.
Except the victims of the attack were not hotel guests (except maybe coincidentally), they were attending a country music festival across the street. I would bet a good many of them were locals
Oh yes, I agree completely. Just making a general observation about hotel security. Any time I traveled, I took time to figure out escape routes and was careful about surroundings, etc.

What this guy did was something else entirely. I guess I can't blame the victims if they are wondering why the hotel didn't notice or didn't care that the guy had all that ordnance in his room. Eventually I suppose they'll blame the housekeeping staff.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by Nyarlathotep » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:28 am

I can't really blame the hotel either. It's a hotel. People walk in and out of them with bags all the time, that's kind of the point of a hotel. They don't search them to make sure said bags are packed with clothes and toiletries instead of guns and ammo. I don't think people would appreciate it if they did. I know I wouldn't. I am not really sure what anyone could have expected the hotel to do. I can only speak for myself but I don't want entering my hotel, when I travel, to become a hassle on par with getting on a plane.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:12 am

Nyarlathotep wrote:I can't really blame the hotel either. It's a hotel. People walk in and out of them with bags all the time, that's kind of the point of a hotel. They don't search them to make sure said bags are packed with clothes and toiletries instead of guns and ammo. I don't think people would appreciate it if they did. I know I wouldn't. I am not really sure what anyone could have expected the hotel to do. I can only speak for myself but I don't want entering my hotel, when I travel, to become a hassle on par with getting on a plane.
I for one one would certainly agree with that. Nobody wants their luggage searched when they check into a hotel. They want the check-in process to be as painless as possible.

He just took advantage of that knowing that he could almost certainly get away with it.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by gnome » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:32 am

I'm inclined to agree--though I might caveat that I would not want to give them blanket immunity from negligence. Just because we don't want them to feel legally required to search everyone at the door, doesn't mean there wasn't some other negligent act, possibly well in alignment with hotel policy or industry standards. Like others here, I can't imagine what that might be, but that's kind of what the courtroom is for, to allow someone to make a case. We don't have to pre-emptively decide every possible claim that might be made.
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Re: Massacre in Las Vegas

Post by Skeeve » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:23 am

U.S. 'It's like being kicked again to the ground': Las Vegas massacre survivors speak out against MGM suit
Survivors of the October 2017 Las Vegas massacre expressed outrage at a lawsuit filed against them by MGM Resorts International at a press conference on Monday, saying they had been forced to relive the pain and helplessness of the attack.

The company, which owns the Mandalay Bay resort-casino from where a gunman carried out the deadliest mass shooting in modern U.S. history, used an obscure law to sue the victims earlier this month in a bid to avoid liability for the shooting.

The shooter, Stephen Paddock, shattered the windows of his hotel suite and fired on a crowd of country music fans, killing 58 people and injuring hundreds more before killing himself.

"It brings it all up again, and takes me right back to being helpless," said Jason McMillan, who was paralyzed from the waist down in the attack.

"Hearing that I'm being sued -- it's not only insulting, it enrages me to think that this company can just try to skip out on their responsibilities and their liability for what happened."

McMillan vowed not to back down in the fight against the company.
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