So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:40 pm

If it's consensual, it's prostitution. Which is stigmatized and mostly illegal.
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by gnome » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:27 pm

Skeeve wrote:Sex to boost film career is 'not rape': Harvey Weinstein lawyer
LONDON: Harvey Weinstein's lawyer said on Saturday a woman having sex with a Hollywood producer to advance her career is "not rape", in a British newspaper interview on the eve of the Oscars.

Ben Brafman is one of the US' top criminal defence attorneys, hired by the disgraced Hollywood mogul whose career is in tatters following accusations of sexual harassment, assault and rape.

More than 100 women have accused Weinstein of impropriety going back 40 years, but Brafman argued there was no criminal behaviour.
"If a woman decides that she needs to have sex with a Hollywood producer to advance her career and actually does it and finds the whole thing offensive, that's not rape," he told The Times.

"You made a conscious decision that you're willing to do something that is personally offensive in order to advance your career," he added.
Weinstein, a twice-married father of five, is being investigated by British and US police, but has not been charged with any crime. He denies having non-consensual sex and is reportedly in treatment for sex addiction.

Dozens of Hollywood women, including Ashley Judd, Gwyneth Paltrow, Kate Beckinsale and Salma Hayek, are among Weinstein's accusers.
Quid Pro Quo...
Looks like Harvey is going to fight back...
From a legal standpoint, he may be off the hook. But if lots of people don't think it's right to abuse power to get sex that would otherwise not be freely offered, he's going to have to face the consequence of a lot of people not liking him or wanting to work with him and calling him names in public.
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by ed » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:30 pm

Dunno ... if an actress gets naked for a part and "simulates" sex on screen it seems to me that the moral high ground is pretty eroded.

Rape is a different matter.
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by Anaxagoras » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:42 pm

Well good luck with that argument. :roll:

In any other industry, if you argue, well a boss should be able to use his position as leverage to get sex from junior employees, I don't think a lot of people would accept that. I'm not using the word rape here, but that is classic sexual harassment.
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:52 pm

Anaxagoras wrote: ... In any other industry ...

For example prostitution.
... if you argue, well a boss pimp should be able to use his position ...
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:02 am

Whatever. But by all means, if that's the defense he wants to make, make it.

Some of the things he has been accused of were not simply quid pro quo transactions as well, like when he cornered a reporter and masturbated in front of her. Not sure what her "quo" was supposed to be in that situation.
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:46 am

The point is Harvey Weinstein is so thoroughly scum he can't anticipate the negative reaction to such a "defense".
It just seems so obvious to him.

This is entirely separate from any argument about so called SJWs or the moral character of actresses. To them I say ...

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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by gnome » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:15 am

ed wrote:Dunno ... if an actress gets naked for a part and "simulates" sex on screen it seems to me that the moral high ground is pretty eroded.

Rape is a different matter.
Ehh? Not sure what you're getting at.
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by ed » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:22 am

Just saying that sex is the coin of the realm in Hollywood, both on screen and off. If there is as deal where sex is exchanged for consideration, well it is nasty but that IS the business that they have chosen and it is something that many/most actresses will engage in on screen to varying degrees.

Guess I am saying that being shocked that this goes on is sort of disingenuous. I am saying that I buy into Weinstein's lawyer's argument.

Now, style is a completely different discussion.

You know, this is a bit like professional sports or even the police. These people get power and adulation and are elevated so far above the rest of us and then they bitch when they find that you have rules to follow or norms to observe.

Fuck all of them.
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by Skeeve » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:14 pm

Skeeve wrote:Sex to boost film career is 'not rape': Harvey Weinstein lawyer
LONDON: Harvey Weinstein's lawyer said on Saturday a woman having sex with a Hollywood producer to advance her career is "not rape", in a British newspaper interview on the eve of the Oscars.
...
"You made a conscious decision that you're willing to do something that is personally offensive in order to advance your career," he added.
Weinstein, a twice-married father of five, is being investigated by British and US police, but has not been charged with any crime. He denies having non-consensual sex and is reportedly in treatment for sex addiction.
Looks like Harvey is going to fight back...
Abdul Alhazred wrote:If it's consensual, it's prostitution. Which is stigmatized and mostly illegal.
I thought prostitution was specifically sex for money.
Is sex for favors also considered prostitution?
gnome wrote:From a legal standpoint, he may be off the hook. But if lots of people don't think it's right to abuse power to get sex that would otherwise not be freely offered, he's going to have to face the consequence of a lot of people not liking him or wanting to work with him and calling him names in public.
Funny, when a man offers money (or 'favors') for sex, its prostitution,
when a woman offers sex for favors....it is apparently not the same..
Ian McKellen Says Actresses Used To Proposition Directors For Sex
...
“In other words, ‘If you give me a job, you can have sex with me.’ That was commonplace for people who proposed that they should be a victim. Madness.”
I am a bit surprised the #metoo folks didn't go after Ian for that....
Then Skank Of America could start in...

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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:23 pm

If the favors are worth money.
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by gnome » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:04 pm

ed wrote:Just saying that sex is the coin of the realm in Hollywood, both on screen and off. If there is as deal where sex is exchanged for consideration, well it is nasty but that IS the business that they have chosen and it is something that many/most actresses will engage in on screen to varying degrees.

Guess I am saying that being shocked that this goes on is sort of disingenuous. I am saying that I buy into Weinstein's lawyer's argument.

Now, style is a completely different discussion.

You know, this is a bit like professional sports or even the police. These people get power and adulation and are elevated so far above the rest of us and then they bitch when they find that you have rules to follow or norms to observe.

Fuck all of them.
I see a clear difference between on-screen as part of a performance vs. a personal interaction. I'm not sure the relevance of that part.

And no, I'm not shocked that it goes on. It's been an abuse of power all along and I'm pleased that it's starting to be seen as such.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by ed » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:28 pm

gnome wrote:
ed wrote:Just saying that sex is the coin of the realm in Hollywood, both on screen and off. If there is as deal where sex is exchanged for consideration, well it is nasty but that IS the business that they have chosen and it is something that many/most actresses will engage in on screen to varying degrees.

Guess I am saying that being shocked that this goes on is sort of disingenuous. I am saying that I buy into Weinstein's lawyer's argument.

Now, style is a completely different discussion.

You know, this is a bit like professional sports or even the police. These people get power and adulation and are elevated so far above the rest of us and then they bitch when they find that you have rules to follow or norms to observe.

Fuck all of them.
I see a clear difference between on-screen as part of a performance vs. a personal interaction. I'm not sure the relevance of that part.

And no, I'm not shocked that it goes on. It's been an abuse of power all along and I'm pleased that it's starting to be seen as such.
The objectification is the same. Doing it for money, doing it for advancement ... the same. To invoke one's "art" is simply specious.
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by gnome » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:17 pm

I don't know about "art" vs. "not art" in such a case, but I still consider a difference between a performance and a personal interaction.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by ed » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:26 pm

With Harvey Weinstein it was a performance, believe me.
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:46 pm

I get the feeling that none of these gals had any strong moral objection to the casting couch, but weren't prepared for it being with someone as creepy as Harvey Weinstein.
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by ed » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:54 pm

They’re telling this story about Lord Beaverbrook and a famous actress. In a game of hypothetical questions, Beaverbrook asked the lady, “Would you live with a stranger if he paid you a million pounds?”

“Yes,” she answered.

“And if he paid you five pounds?”

The irate lady fumed, “What do you think I am?”

“We’ve already established that,” returned Beaverbrook. “Now we’re trying to determine the degree.”
My indignation is vanishing.
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by gnome » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:01 pm

Is that different from an executive offering promotions for sex in a more traditional office environment? Just because plenty of women (or people, if the situation is to be gender-neutral) would be willing doesn't make it a good thing.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:06 pm

gnome wrote:Is that different from an executive offering promotions for sex in a more traditional office environment?

In terms of absolute morals, no.

But this is the business they have chosen.
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by gnome » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:19 pm

And if it were more common in an office environment, that would be the "business they had chosen." Not sold on this line of reasoning.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2