So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by ed » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:22 pm

gnome wrote:Is that different from an executive offering promotions for sex in a more traditional office environment? Just because plenty of women (or people, if the situation is to be gender-neutral) would be willing doesn't make it a good thing.
"good" is a patriarchal value judgement. The difference here I think is that the "product" is basically sexual in nature, hence my quote.
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:51 pm

gnome wrote:And if it were more common in an office environment, that would be the "business they had chosen." Not sold on this line of reasoning.


I am not saying it's OK, I'm saying Hollywood has been corrupt from day one. Note that I was quoting a fictional gangster talking about the rackets.

That both parties to the transaction are in the wrong. Not abuser and victim. If they were not worthless evil scum they wouldn't be in Hollywood in the first place.
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by ed » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:53 pm

Why "wrong"?

It is a transaction between two adults. As long as there is no force it is ok.

Now, we can redefine the term "force" so that all sex is rape but I am not going there.
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:20 pm

ed wrote:Why "wrong"?
Because the purpose of the transaction is to facilitate making a movie. :)
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by gnome » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:28 pm

ed wrote:Why "wrong"?

It is a transaction between two adults. As long as there is no force it is ok.

Now, we can redefine the term "force" so that all sex is rape but I am not going there.
Certainly I would not redefine "force" as you worried, but I do not think we should limit the question to only physical force.

Let me step back a moment and ask if you accept the idea that a power imbalance screws up the question of consent in sexual relations?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by Grammatron » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:04 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
gnome wrote:And if it were more common in an office environment, that would be the "business they had chosen." Not sold on this line of reasoning.


I am not saying it's OK, I'm saying Hollywood has been corrupt from day one. Note that I was quoting a fictional gangster talking about the rackets.

That both parties to the transaction are in the wrong. Not abuser and victim. If they were not worthless evil scum they wouldn't be in Hollywood in the first place.
Hollywood is no more evil than any other lucrative industry.

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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by ed » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:15 pm

gnome wrote:
ed wrote:Why "wrong"?

It is a transaction between two adults. As long as there is no force it is ok.

Now, we can redefine the term "force" so that all sex is rape but I am not going there.
Certainly I would not redefine "force" as you worried, but I do not think we should limit the question to only physical force.

Let me step back a moment and ask if you accept the idea that a power imbalance screws up the question of consent in sexual relations?
It does but it also screws up all human interactions. Sexual relations are a subset. How many women get (got?) married for the power that the male wielded, power that would provide and keep her safe. You know, we are animals and women nest. So it is disingenuous to act surprised when you see sexual politics being played.
But isn't that the nature of being human? Even with ANTIFA there will always be one loudmouth who grabs the mike.
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by ed » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:16 pm

Grammatron wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:
gnome wrote:And if it were more common in an office environment, that would be the "business they had chosen." Not sold on this line of reasoning.


I am not saying it's OK, I'm saying Hollywood has been corrupt from day one. Note that I was quoting a fictional gangster talking about the rackets.

That both parties to the transaction are in the wrong. Not abuser and victim. If they were not worthless evil scum they wouldn't be in Hollywood in the first place.
Hollywood is no more evil than any other lucrative industry.
The only comparable evil is Google. :x
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by Doctor X » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:52 pm

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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:21 pm

ed wrote: ... Even with ANTIFA there will always be one loudmouth who grabs the mike beds all the hot women.

ANTIFA has hot women, right? :notsure:
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by gnome » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:25 pm

ed wrote:
gnome wrote:
ed wrote:Why "wrong"?

It is a transaction between two adults. As long as there is no force it is ok.

Now, we can redefine the term "force" so that all sex is rape but I am not going there.
Certainly I would not redefine "force" as you worried, but I do not think we should limit the question to only physical force.

Let me step back a moment and ask if you accept the idea that a power imbalance screws up the question of consent in sexual relations?
It does but it also screws up all human interactions. Sexual relations are a subset. How many women get (got?) married for the power that the male wielded, power that would provide and keep her safe. You know, we are animals and women nest. So it is disingenuous to act surprised when you see sexual politics being played.
But isn't that the nature of being human? Even with ANTIFA there will always be one loudmouth who grabs the mike.
I don't know where people think I'm surprised. that keeps popping up for some reason but I've expressed no surprise.

I subscribe to the idea that being of such a personal nature, that sexual interactions have magnified importance-- it's just a matter of human dignity that it should be off the table.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by ed » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:33 pm

gnome wrote:
ed wrote:
gnome wrote:
ed wrote:Why "wrong"?

It is a transaction between two adults. As long as there is no force it is ok.

Now, we can redefine the term "force" so that all sex is rape but I am not going there.
Certainly I would not redefine "force" as you worried, but I do not think we should limit the question to only physical force.

Let me step back a moment and ask if you accept the idea that a power imbalance screws up the question of consent in sexual relations?
It does but it also screws up all human interactions. Sexual relations are a subset. How many women get (got?) married for the power that the male wielded, power that would provide and keep her safe. You know, we are animals and women nest. So it is disingenuous to act surprised when you see sexual politics being played.
But isn't that the nature of being human? Even with ANTIFA there will always be one loudmouth who grabs the mike.
I don't know where people think I'm surprised. that keeps popping up for some reason but I've expressed no surprise.

I subscribe to the idea that being of such a personal nature, that sexual interactions have magnified importance-- it's just a matter of human dignity that it should be off the table.
Dignity and Hollywood ought not to be mentioned in the same breathe.
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by gnome » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:08 am

That doesn't make it OK. That's just a pithy cynical remark. Done with logic?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by ed » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:55 am

I am nothing if not pithy. That and succinct.
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by Skeeve » Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:50 pm

Update: Harvey Weinstein Indicted On More Charges, Including Predatory Sexual Assault
Manhattan District Attorney Cyrus R. Vance Jr. has filed additional charges against disgraced film executive Harvey Weinstein, including two counts of predatory sexual assault ― a Class A-II felony which carries a minimum sentence of 10 years and a maximum sentence of life in prison.

In addition to the two counts of predatory sexual assault, Weinstein was also charged with an additional count of criminal sexual act in the first degree for a forcible sexual act against a third woman in 2006.

These new charges come after a grand jury indicted Weinstein in May on the previous three counts brought against him, including two counts of rape ― one first-degree and one third-degree ― and one count of a criminal sexual act in the third degree for crimes allegedly committed in 2004 and 2013 against two women.

]“A Manhattan Grand Jury has now indicted Harvey Weinstein on some of the most serious sexual offenses that exist under New York’s Penal Law,” said Vance in a press release.

“This indictment is the result of the extraordinary courage exhibited by the survivors who have come forward. Our investigation continues. If you are a survivor of the predatory abuse with which Mr. Weinstein is charged, there is still time to pursue justice. Please call us at 212-335-9373.”

Weinstein pleaded not guilty to charges of rape and sexual assault last month. Despite his plea, more than 70 women have accused the 66-year-old of sexual misconduct, including rape.
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by Skeeve » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:13 am

HARVEY WEINSTEIN RAPE ACCUSER'S EMAILS DON'T CLEAR HIM ... Says NYPD Official

The emails Harvey Weinstein received from his alleged rape accuser -- many of which read like love letters -- aren't enough to absolve him in the case ... according to a source with the NYPD.

A law enforcement official tells us ... a person can be raped and still write a love note to their rapist after the fact. In the same vein -- there are cases where husbands rape their wives and boyfriends rape their girlfriends ... and the relationships continue.

As for the emails Weinstein received from his accuser -- which were filed in his criminal case Friday and obtained by TMZ -- our source points out that none of them describe or refer to what happened on the specific date she claims she was raped.

We're told if they did, it would be problematic for her case, because it could show her mindset or convey consent during the incident in question ... but her emails don't do that.

Our NYPD source also says Weinstein's team's claim of prosecutorial misconduct for withholding the emails is unsound ... because the messages aren't exculpatory.

Still, Weinstein's lawyer is asking the judge to dismiss all the criminal charges against him.
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by Anaxagoras » Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:39 am

Our NYPD source also says Weinstein's team's claim of prosecutorial misconduct for withholding the emails is unsound ... because the messages aren't exculpatory.
:notsure:

Sometimes you can have a perfectly good case and the prosecutor can fuck it up.

Is it for the prosecutor to unilaterally decide what is "exculpatory" and what is not?
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by Doctor X » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:34 am

Until the judge tells him otherwise. There is this very good documentary:



To answer your question, no, no tentacles.

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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by ed » Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:32 pm

ed wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:33 pm
gnome wrote:
ed wrote:
gnome wrote:
ed wrote:Why "wrong"?

It is a transaction between two adults. As long as there is no force it is ok.

Now, we can redefine the term "force" so that all sex is rape but I am not going there.
Certainly I would not redefine "force" as you worried, but I do not think we should limit the question to only physical force.

Let me step back a moment and ask if you accept the idea that a power imbalance screws up the question of consent in sexual relations?
It does but it also screws up all human interactions. Sexual relations are a subset. How many women get (got?) married for the power that the male wielded, power that would provide and keep her safe. You know, we are animals and women nest. So it is disingenuous to act surprised when you see sexual politics being played.
But isn't that the nature of being human? Even with ANTIFA there will always be one loudmouth who grabs the mike.
I don't know where people think I'm surprised. that keeps popping up for some reason but I've expressed no surprise.

I subscribe to the idea that being of such a personal nature, that sexual interactions have magnified importance-- it's just a matter of human dignity that it should be off the table.
Dignity and Hollywood ought not to be mentioned in the same breathe.
That doesn't make it OK. That's just a pithy cynical remark. Done with logic?
Missed this .. sorry.

"it should be" implies a higher order of "rightness". Is there one? It seems to me that ages ago we all sorta agreed that relations between consenting adults were no ones business. Now we are saying that "consent" is fluid.

In any agreement there are always non-objective factors at work. I have read, for example, that successful business people tend to be taller than average. Does that give them an edge in negotiations? Implicit in a negotiation is agreement or consent. How do you factor that in? Or is it that "consent" is only (for the moment at least) open to examination in sexual relations? I can see RCC weighing in, saying that there is always some level of interpretation when it comes to consent for anything. For example, if I say that either your brains or or signature will be on a document, can one say that you have really "consented"? Well, yes, but under duress.

Is the potential of withholding career advancement "duress"? And if it is a private enterprise, who has the right to gainsay the way negotiations are conducted? Ultimately it is a quid pro quo and one is not physically forced to submit or participate or even be in the same room. "But", you may say, "the person's career". So? Is one entitled to that career so that withholding it is a form of theft?

There is shitty behavior and there is illegal behavior and they are not always coincident. People knew about Weinstein. Brad Pitt evidently threatened him (with what one wonders) yet no one said a word, even Her Turn. That tells me that the deal was worth it for those involved. You may not like it but tough shit.

If I were Brad, I would have publicly beat the shit out of the guy. But I'm not Brad.
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Post by Anaxagoras » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:38 am

ed wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:32 pm
If I were Brad, I would have publicly beat the shit out of the guy. But I'm not Brad.
Of course you would have.

And there would be no consequences, right?
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