So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Postby ed » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:22 pm

gnome wrote:Is that different from an executive offering promotions for sex in a more traditional office environment? Just because plenty of women (or people, if the situation is to be gender-neutral) would be willing doesn't make it a good thing.


"good" is a patriarchal value judgement. The difference here I think is that the "product" is basically sexual in nature, hence my quote.
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:51 pm

gnome wrote:And if it were more common in an office environment, that would be the "business they had chosen." Not sold on this line of reasoning.




I am not saying it's OK, I'm saying Hollywood has been corrupt from day one. Note that I was quoting a fictional gangster talking about the rackets.

That both parties to the transaction are in the wrong. Not abuser and victim. If they were not worthless evil scum they wouldn't be in Hollywood in the first place.
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Postby ed » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:53 pm

Why "wrong"?

It is a transaction between two adults. As long as there is no force it is ok.

Now, we can redefine the term "force" so that all sex is rape but I am not going there.
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:20 pm

ed wrote:Why "wrong"?


Because the purpose of the transaction is to facilitate making a movie. :)
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Postby gnome » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:28 pm

ed wrote:Why "wrong"?

It is a transaction between two adults. As long as there is no force it is ok.

Now, we can redefine the term "force" so that all sex is rape but I am not going there.


Certainly I would not redefine "force" as you worried, but I do not think we should limit the question to only physical force.

Let me step back a moment and ask if you accept the idea that a power imbalance screws up the question of consent in sexual relations?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Postby Grammatron » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:04 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
gnome wrote:And if it were more common in an office environment, that would be the "business they had chosen." Not sold on this line of reasoning.




I am not saying it's OK, I'm saying Hollywood has been corrupt from day one. Note that I was quoting a fictional gangster talking about the rackets.

That both parties to the transaction are in the wrong. Not abuser and victim. If they were not worthless evil scum they wouldn't be in Hollywood in the first place.


Hollywood is no more evil than any other lucrative industry.
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Postby ed » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:15 pm

gnome wrote:
ed wrote:Why "wrong"?

It is a transaction between two adults. As long as there is no force it is ok.

Now, we can redefine the term "force" so that all sex is rape but I am not going there.


Certainly I would not redefine "force" as you worried, but I do not think we should limit the question to only physical force.

Let me step back a moment and ask if you accept the idea that a power imbalance screws up the question of consent in sexual relations?


It does but it also screws up all human interactions. Sexual relations are a subset. How many women get (got?) married for the power that the male wielded, power that would provide and keep her safe. You know, we are animals and women nest. So it is disingenuous to act surprised when you see sexual politics being played.
But isn't that the nature of being human? Even with ANTIFA there will always be one loudmouth who grabs the mike.
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Postby ed » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:16 pm

Grammatron wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:
gnome wrote:And if it were more common in an office environment, that would be the "business they had chosen." Not sold on this line of reasoning.




I am not saying it's OK, I'm saying Hollywood has been corrupt from day one. Note that I was quoting a fictional gangster talking about the rackets.

That both parties to the transaction are in the wrong. Not abuser and victim. If they were not worthless evil scum they wouldn't be in Hollywood in the first place.


Hollywood is no more evil than any other lucrative industry.

The only comparable evil is Google. :x
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:21 pm

ed wrote: ... Even with ANTIFA there will always be one loudmouth who grabs the mike beds all the hot women.



ANTIFA has hot women, right? :notsure:
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Postby gnome » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:25 pm

ed wrote:
gnome wrote:
ed wrote:Why "wrong"?

It is a transaction between two adults. As long as there is no force it is ok.

Now, we can redefine the term "force" so that all sex is rape but I am not going there.


Certainly I would not redefine "force" as you worried, but I do not think we should limit the question to only physical force.

Let me step back a moment and ask if you accept the idea that a power imbalance screws up the question of consent in sexual relations?


It does but it also screws up all human interactions. Sexual relations are a subset. How many women get (got?) married for the power that the male wielded, power that would provide and keep her safe. You know, we are animals and women nest. So it is disingenuous to act surprised when you see sexual politics being played.
But isn't that the nature of being human? Even with ANTIFA there will always be one loudmouth who grabs the mike.


I don't know where people think I'm surprised. that keeps popping up for some reason but I've expressed no surprise.

I subscribe to the idea that being of such a personal nature, that sexual interactions have magnified importance-- it's just a matter of human dignity that it should be off the table.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Postby ed » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:33 pm

gnome wrote:
ed wrote:
gnome wrote:
ed wrote:Why "wrong"?

It is a transaction between two adults. As long as there is no force it is ok.

Now, we can redefine the term "force" so that all sex is rape but I am not going there.


Certainly I would not redefine "force" as you worried, but I do not think we should limit the question to only physical force.

Let me step back a moment and ask if you accept the idea that a power imbalance screws up the question of consent in sexual relations?


It does but it also screws up all human interactions. Sexual relations are a subset. How many women get (got?) married for the power that the male wielded, power that would provide and keep her safe. You know, we are animals and women nest. So it is disingenuous to act surprised when you see sexual politics being played.
But isn't that the nature of being human? Even with ANTIFA there will always be one loudmouth who grabs the mike.


I don't know where people think I'm surprised. that keeps popping up for some reason but I've expressed no surprise.

I subscribe to the idea that being of such a personal nature, that sexual interactions have magnified importance-- it's just a matter of human dignity that it should be off the table.


Dignity and Hollywood ought not to be mentioned in the same breathe.
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Postby gnome » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:08 am

That doesn't make it OK. That's just a pithy cynical remark. Done with logic?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: So, Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser

Postby ed » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:55 am

I am nothing if not pithy. That and succinct.
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