Net neutrality, we hardly knew ye

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Re: Net neutrality, we hardly knew ye

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:02 pm

Of course it is.

It's The Atlantic :BigGrin3:
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Re: Net neutrality, we hardly knew ye

Postby Anaxagoras » Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:15 pm

It's a bit like saying that if you make cars more fuel efficient, then people will just drive more, so what's the point? If you make airplane travel more efficient, then the cost will come down, and people will fly more, so what's the point?
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Re: Net neutrality, we hardly knew ye

Postby gnome » Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:50 pm

As for the "more government control" business, I'd be happy enough with a specific statute requiring providers not to play QoS games with the content, and leave them out of the telecom regulatory umbrella. If that would work.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Net neutrality, we hardly knew ye

Postby gnome » Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:51 pm

Weird question: what does it take to be your own ISP?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Net neutrality, we hardly knew ye

Postby Rob Lister » Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:27 pm

gnome wrote:Weird question: what does it take to be your own ISP?


Servers and routers and a wire to some bigger ISP.
You're never your own ISP. Your current ISP has an ISP. But they pay by the block and then piecemeal that block out to customers upon demand.

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Re: Net neutrality, we hardly knew ye

Postby Grammatron » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:12 pm

gnome wrote:Weird question: what does it take to be your own ISP?


Rob is correct, but if you want more info than that, here's a good example.

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/ ... _wireless/
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Re: Net neutrality, we hardly knew ye

Postby gnome » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:06 pm

So there's possibly some mileage in local services. Basically I want to know (in case I ever have to) how to skip the major front facing offers from large media companies. Those are the ones with the biggest incentive to monkey with the content.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Net neutrality, we hardly knew ye

Postby Rob Lister » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:13 pm

gnome wrote:So there's possibly [of?] some mileage in local services. Basically I want to know (in case I ever have to) how to skip the major front facing offers from large media companies. Those are the ones with the biggest incentive to monkey with the content.


Probably not so much but times are changing.

As a single player you cannot afford a block of service.

But ...

If google (and others) get their way we'll have a thousand satellites above you that will deliver service almost as quick as fiber. Certainly as quick as what you get from fiber now. GB is not hard.

Will they be better actors?

Can't answer.

Will they be cheaper?

Will they demand access to your first born?

Certainly.

See above.

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Re: Net neutrality, we hardly knew ye

Postby gnome » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:46 pm

That's heartening for a crassly capitalistg reason. If net neutral connections remain something that customers want, additional competition could force everyone to offer it. I'm less worried about price when there are starting to be additional competitive vectors.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

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Re: Net neutrality, we hardly knew ye

Postby Rob Lister » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:51 pm

gnome wrote:That's heartening for a crassly capitalistg reason. If net neutral connections remain something that customers want, additional competition could force everyone to offer it. I'm less worried about price when there are starting to be additional competitive vectors.


Those 'vectors' are a long way out.

But yea, I think new avenues of competition will solve this issue, maybe. But without a framework there's another just as bad issue behind it.

Common Carrier. What the fuck is wrong with that.

This really is where capitalism meets socialism.

I don't pretend to know best.

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Re: Net neutrality, we hardly knew ye

Postby gnome » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:13 am

I do prefer to have someone to appeal to while competition is limited. As corrupt and imperfect as the government is, it's better than having nothing at all when the private sector has no reason to respond to me on their own incentive.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

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Re: Net neutrality, we hardly knew ye

Postby Rob Lister » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:26 am

gnome wrote:I do prefer to have someone to appeal to while competition is limited. As corrupt and imperfect as the government is, it's better than having nothing at all when the private sector has no reason to respond to me on their own incentive.


I don't fucking get you. Never did. Speak mor43e plain-like

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Re: Net neutrality, we hardly knew ye

Postby Grammatron » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:34 am

What gnome is saying here is that he would prefer to have government fail to provide him internet rather than a business. This way, when government fails he could complain at city hall and feel good about it. because they care, where is a corporation would not care about gnome.
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Re: Net neutrality, we hardly knew ye

Postby Doctor X » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:42 am

Well, you know the old saying, "you can fight City Hall."




What?

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Re: Net neutrality, we hardly knew ye

Postby Rob Lister » Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:08 pm

Comcast: Comcast says it currently doesn't block, throttle content, or offer paid fast lanes, but hasn't committed to not doing so in the future.

AT&T: AT&T has committed to not blocking or throttling websites in the future. However, its stance around fast lanes is unclear.

Verizon: Verizon indicates that, at least in the immediate future, it will not block legal content. As for throttling and fast lanes, the company has no stance, and even seems to be excited to use the absence of rules to its advantage.

T-Mobile: T-Mobile makes no commitments to not throttle content or offer paid fast lanes and is unclear on its commitment to not blocking sites and services. It's already involved in programs that advantage some services over others.

Sprint: Sprint makes no commitments on net neutrality, but suggests it doesn't have plans to offer a service that would block sites.

Charter (Spectrum): Charter doesn't make any guarantees, but the company indicates that it's currently committed to not blocking or throttling customers.

Cox: Cox says it won't block or throttle content, even without net neutrality. It won't make commitments on zero-rating or paid fast lanes.

Altice USA (Optimum and SuddenLink): Altice doesn't currently block or throttle and suggests it will keep those policies, though without an explicit commitment. The company doesn't comment on prioritizing one service over another.

Google Fi and Google Fiber: Google doesn't make any promises regarding throttling and paid prioritization. However, it is the only company to state that it believes paid prioritization would be harmful.


https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/15/167 ... tt-verizon

There's more detail about each at the link. They all claim they will not throttle but none promise they won't allow paid fast lanes. Those are two sides of the same coin.

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Re: Net neutrality, we hardly knew ye

Postby RCC: Act II » Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:15 pm

Grammatron wrote:What gnome is saying here is that he would prefer to have government fail to provide him internet rather than a business. This way, when government fails he could complain at city hall and feel good about it. because they care, where is a corporation would not care about gnome.




The same way government has failed to provide electricity, etc. The internet has become a necessity and public good to the point that it needs to be treated as a utility.

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Re: Net neutrality, we hardly knew ye

Postby gnome » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:07 pm

Grammatron wrote:What gnome is saying here is that he would prefer to have government fail to provide him internet rather than a business. This way, when government fails he could complain at city hall and feel good about it. because they care, where is a corporation would not care about gnome.


HAHAHAHA..... ok that's really not it, but it was funny.

Sometimes you can get changes at city hall whether they care or not. Not as often as perhaps we should, but more than never, because in the end they do need your votes.

I would rather "vote with my wallet" through having enough competition; but when competition is scarce it is better for the consumer to be represented by the government, imperfect as it is, than by nobody. No, I do not think they "care" about me. They do care how I vote.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Net neutrality, we hardly knew ye

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:09 pm

Were things really so bloody awful before 2015?
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Re: Net neutrality, we hardly knew ye

Postby gnome » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:15 pm

Rob Lister wrote:
Comcast: Comcast says it currently doesn't block, throttle content, or offer paid fast lanes, but hasn't committed to not doing so in the future.

AT&T: AT&T has committed to not blocking or throttling websites in the future. However, its stance around fast lanes is unclear.

Verizon: Verizon indicates that, at least in the immediate future, it will not block legal content. As for throttling and fast lanes, the company has no stance, and even seems to be excited to use the absence of rules to its advantage.

T-Mobile: T-Mobile makes no commitments to not throttle content or offer paid fast lanes and is unclear on its commitment to not blocking sites and services. It's already involved in programs that advantage some services over others.

Sprint: Sprint makes no commitments on net neutrality, but suggests it doesn't have plans to offer a service that would block sites.

Charter (Spectrum): Charter doesn't make any guarantees, but the company indicates that it's currently committed to not blocking or throttling customers.

Cox: Cox says it won't block or throttle content, even without net neutrality. It won't make commitments on zero-rating or paid fast lanes.

Altice USA (Optimum and SuddenLink): Altice doesn't currently block or throttle and suggests it will keep those policies, though without an explicit commitment. The company doesn't comment on prioritizing one service over another.

Google Fi and Google Fiber: Google doesn't make any promises regarding throttling and paid prioritization. However, it is the only company to state that it believes paid prioritization would be harmful.


https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/15/167 ... tt-verizon

There's more detail about each at the link. They all claim they will not throttle but none promise they won't allow paid fast lanes. Those are two sides of the same coin.


Let's talk about zero-rating. Forget before and after net neutrality laws, let's say that we here got to decide what the laws should be.

XYZ Internet allows customer to access XYZFlix without going against their data cap. That is likely to be popular with users, but does it squeeze out competition sideways? Other providers offering similar deals with their own media services means that anyone opening a new service and not getting into bed with one of the big players, can't as easily get off the ground. Is that bad? Would preventing it be worse? I've still been thinking about this one.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

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Re: Net neutrality, we hardly knew ye

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:45 pm

Remember back in the 1990s all the talk about the "digital divide".

The consequence of not having total government control of ISPs was that only the rich would have internet access.

Well that shtick didn't work, so ...
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