#MeToo (generic)....

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby RCC: Act II » Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:46 pm

ed wrote:Here is another rant.

People are animals. You want to understand human concerns? Study animal behavior.

Humans will evince the behaviors that they are rewarded for.
Like a rat.

If cops are rewarded for arrests, you will get arrests
If prosecutors are rewarded for convictions, you will get convictions.

Believing in any other outcome is just stupid.


I like it when I agree with ed.

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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby gnome » Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:26 am

There needs to be a way where prosecutors' records are not harmed by rightfully dropping a case against a likely innocent person. If anything I'd love to see that be a positive tick, but I'd take half a loaf.
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby ed » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:35 pm

Prosecutors fought ... FOUGHT ... the notion that they were obliged to release exculpatory information to the defence.

Think it went to SCOTUS and that somewhat recently. RCC Mk. 2 would know.

Point is that it has nothing to do with justice, just winning. And our legal system is simply fucked. If you are a middle class guy and you get sucked into the system for any reason whatsoever you have lost and are being punished before any trial.

Ask RCC, what does it cost to defend against anything? Whatever that number is is what you are fined. Win or loose.

If the feds want you, they will get you. Ask RCC about stacked charges. Then ask about plea bargains. Then tell me about how wonderful the federal conviction rate is. Fact is that you have no idea what they do to get those convictions. They don't even record their interviews.
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby ed » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:38 pm

Brady Rule

The Brady Rule, named after Brady v. Maryland, 373 U.S. 83 (1963), requires prosecutors to disclose materially exculpatory evidence in the government's possession to the defense. A "Brady material" or evidence the prosecutor is required to disclose under this rule includes any evidence favorable to the accused--evidence that goes towards negating a defendant's guilt, that would reduce a defendant's potential sentence, or evidence going to the credibility of a witness.

If the prosecution does not disclose material exculpatory evidence under this rule, and prejudice has ensued, the evidence will be suppressed. The evidence will be suppressed regardless of whether the prosecutor knew the evidence was in his or her possession, or whether or not the prosecutor intentionally or inadvertently withheld the evidence from the defense.

Further, in cases subsequent to Brady, the Supreme Court has eliminated the requirement for a defendant to have requested a favorable information, stating that the Prosecution has a constitutional duty to disclose, that is triggered by the potential impact of favorable but undisclosed evidence See Kyles v. Whitley 514 U.S. 419, 434 (1955); United States. v. Bagley, 473 U.S. 667 (1985).


Thought there was something later than 1963. oh well.
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby Skeeve » Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:34 am

Meanwhile back in the UK (other side of the pond)....
The collapse of three high profile rape cases under frightfully similar circumstances has led Scotland Yard to announce that it will be conducting a review into all current cases of rape and sexual abuse. It has also led to widespread realisation that the ‘victim centred’ culture – a result of decades of feminist activism – which is now deeply entrenched within the policing and judicial systems is not serving justice.


...Yes, And yet another...

...
Third and finally, Samuel Armstrong, a Tory MP’s chief of staff accused of raping a woman in Westminster, was also cleared of all charges against him after new electronic evidence came to light that the woman had been trying to withhold evidence in order to get “more leeway to hide certain aspects and mould what comes out.”

http://thebackbencher.co.uk/collapse-of ... e-justice/
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby Skeeve » Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:56 am

Also from the UK:
Police should refer to people who report rape as complainants rather than victims, senior legal figures said last night, amid warnings that the policy is undermining impartiality and leading to miscarriages of justice.

MPs and members of the judiciary have also called for an overhaul of the current guidelines which demand that officers automatically believe complainants from the outset.

Scotland Yard has ordered an urgent review of scores of sex abuse cases, including 30 which are about to go to trial, after it emerged that crucial material had been withheld from defence lawyers.
...
"There is a worry that having a rigid mindset at the beginning and accepting what they are told by the complainant is true, may lead them, at best to not realise the significance of what they are seeing, if it assists the defence, or at worst disregarding it because it doesn't fit in with their case theory."

Ya think?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12 ... ting-rape/
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:31 am

Police should refer to people who report rape as complainants rather than victims ...


This makes perfect sense.

You don't have to be the victim to report the crime.
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby ed » Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:49 am

Actually, "victim" assumes facts not in evidence. "Alleged victim" would be better. If the person is represented by Gloria Allred "Purported victim" would be sound.
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:53 pm

I was thinking more along the lines of an uninvolved third party reporting the crime.

I have done that (not for a rape).
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby RCC: Act II » Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:40 pm

ed wrote:
Brady Rule

The Brady Rule, named after Brady v. Maryland, 373 U.S. 83 (1963), requires prosecutors to disclose materially exculpatory evidence in the government's possession to the defense. A "Brady material" or evidence the prosecutor is required to disclose under this rule includes any evidence favorable to the accused--evidence that goes towards negating a defendant's guilt, that would reduce a defendant's potential sentence, or evidence going to the credibility of a witness.

If the prosecution does not disclose material exculpatory evidence under this rule, and prejudice has ensued, the evidence will be suppressed. The evidence will be suppressed regardless of whether the prosecutor knew the evidence was in his or her possession, or whether or not the prosecutor intentionally or inadvertently withheld the evidence from the defense.

Further, in cases subsequent to Brady, the Supreme Court has eliminated the requirement for a defendant to have requested a favorable information, stating that the Prosecution has a constitutional duty to disclose, that is triggered by the potential impact of favorable but undisclosed evidence See Kyles v. Whitley 514 U.S. 419, 434 (1955); United States. v. Bagley, 473 U.S. 667 (1985).


Thought there was something later than 1963. oh well.


The parameters have been fleshed out. Things like the prosecutor is assumed to have all the evidence collected by the state even if the prosecutor doesn't know about it. Seminal cases like Brady or Roe v. Wade are a starting point of a body of law that is developed over time.

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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby RCC: Act II » Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:53 pm

ed wrote:Prosecutors fought ... FOUGHT ... the notion that they were obliged to release exculpatory information to the defence.

Think it went to SCOTUS and that somewhat recently. RCC Mk. 2 would know.

Point is that it has nothing to do with justice, just winning. And our legal system is simply fucked. If you are a middle class guy and you get sucked into the system for any reason whatsoever you have lost and are being punished before any trial.

Ask RCC, what does it cost to defend against anything? Whatever that number is is what you are fined. Win or loose.

I only do indigent defense, but were I in private practice and someone came to me for a rape charge I'd want a retainer in the 7.5K range and charge about $150/hr depending on the specifics. That wouldn't include appeal. If the case didn't go to trial the client would get a pretty big chunk of that 7.5K back as unbilled, but if it went to an ugly trial there would be a chance that I'd have to bill for more and I'd never get paid.

That $150/hr is well below market rates for a lawyer in this area. My clients here would be almost all working class and I don't like that this is happening at all.

It is my opinion that the public defender services should be available to all. It wouldn't add much to our caseload anyway, at least not here.

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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby Skeeve » Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:45 pm

Oldie (but goodie) also from the UK....gotta love those Brits!
Commuter who walked past actress at Waterloo station cleared of 'bizarre' sex assault claim

Mark Pearson may not even have made physical contact with woman in her 60s on busy concourse - but CPS approved sex assault charge

Hrm, I think I am beginning to see a pattern here..

A commuter has been cleared of sexually assaulting a well-known actress after a jury rejected claims the crime could have taken place in a brief half-second contact in a busy railway station.

Mark Pearson, a 51-year-old artist and picture framer, was accused of brushing against the actress, who cannot be named for legal reasons, in a mass of train passengers at London’s Waterloo station.

CCTV footage showed Mr Pearson, who was a complete stranger to the alleged victim, did not break his stride as he walked past the woman, who was heading to a rehearsal.

The defendant, who said he had endured a year-long “Kafkaesque nightmare” as a result of the complaint, blamed the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) for forcing him to endure “mental torture” as a result of the charge.

A jury at Blackfriars Crown Court took 90 minutes to clear Mr Pearson of the charge of “sexual assault by penetration”, the Mail on Sunday newspaper said.
...
There were no witnesses, no forensic evidence and the actress failed to pick out Mr Pearson in an identity parade of video images following the alleged incident in December 2014.
...
A CPS spokesman said: “There was sufficient evidence for this case to proceed to court and progress to trial. We respect the decision of the jury.”

Like they have a choice in the matter....

The CPS is the same bunch of douche-bags that (apparently) screwed the pooch in the OP and the other cases sited above...

Begs the question, do they fuck up a lot, are they just biased, or are they practicing a form of vindictive prosecution?

Prosecutors slowed down CCTV in case of commuter cleared of 'bizarre' sex assault on actress

Crucial CCTV footage in a "bizarre" sex assault prosecution had been slowed down by the authorities to give a misleading impression of events, the defence solicitor in the case has revealed.
...
But it can now be disclosed that - to the concern of Mr Pearson's legal team - the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) supplied original CCTV depicting the alleged assault in an amended format which gave a misleading impression of the incident.


Maybe they are just a bunch of feminists, (either misandric females, or I-do-it-for-the-pussy
males *) who want to "help the victims," no matter what the cost.

*See AA's post: viewtopic.php?f=6&p=897253#p897253
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby Skeeve » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:12 am

#MeToo has lumped trivial in with legitimate sexual assault
This was written by a woman, BTW.
It’s gone far enough. What started as a necessary mass-rejection of sexual harassment and assault is sliding into absurdity and irrelevance. A backlash is looming against the very people the spontaneous battle against sexual villainy was meant to help: powerless women and men.

The fight is being waged not with force, but with the rather bland Internet movement, #MeToo. The battle by hashtag conflates genuine sex crimes with mere childish behavior — blending the Harvey Weinsteins and Kevin Spaceys with the Al Frankens and George H.W. Bushes.

How long before we stop taking victims seriously?


Again, we are using the word 'victims,' apparently (only) upon accusation w/o evidence, just on claim.
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby Skeeve » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:30 am

The downside of the #MeToo movement starting to dawn on women

The rules of interaction between women and men in the workplace have been changed with a suddenness that inevitably produces unforeseen negative consequences, no matter how positive and necessary the switch might be. The Associated Press this morning runs a feature article whose title asks a question that answers itself: "Will misconduct scandals make men wary of women at work?"

Duh!


:doglaugh:

OH, I needed that....okay back to the article
...
Ana Quincoces, a Miami-based attorney and entrepreneur who owns her own food line, says her business and its success involves working mostly with men, and sales and other activities are often concluded over lunch or drinks. Those opportunities, she says, are dwindling, because many of the men she knows through her business "are terrified."

"There's a feeling of this wall that wasn't there that is suddenly up because they don't know what's appropriate anymore - it's disconcerting," Quincoces said. "I feel that they're more careful, more formal in their relationships with co-workers. And I can't say I blame them, because what's happened is pervasive. Every day there's a new accusation."

She said many of the men she knows are now avoiding one-on-one social occasions that were normal in the past.
Oh well...
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby gnome » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:33 am

That's the same old bullshit we hear about police abuse too.

"We can't have a functional workplace if people are afraid of being held accountable for their behavior towards co-workers!"
"The police can't do their job if they're afraid of violating someone's rights!"
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby Skeeve » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:44 am

gnome wrote:That's the same old bullshit we hear about police abuse too.

"We can't have a functional workplace if people are afraid of being held accountable for their behavior towards co-workers!"
"The police can't do their job if they're afraid of violating someone's rights!"


It seems to me that men are backing off to 'strictly business' relations between the genders,
which seems to me to be appropriate behavior for work.

ed, you seem to be a manager. has this happened where you work?
If so, did/do you consider it to be a good thing?

Just curious, did you cancel the Christmas party?
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:50 am

It occurs to me that if "the rules" in the 1950s were what they are today, I would not exist.

No amusing back story, only that my parents met at work.
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby ed » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:35 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
ed wrote:Prosecutors fought ... FOUGHT ... the notion that they were obliged to release exculpatory information to the defence.

Think it went to SCOTUS and that somewhat recently. RCC Mk. 2 would know.

Point is that it has nothing to do with justice, just winning. And our legal system is simply fucked. If you are a middle class guy and you get sucked into the system for any reason whatsoever you have lost and are being punished before any trial.

Ask RCC, what does it cost to defend against anything? Whatever that number is is what you are fined. Win or loose.

I only do indigent defense, but were I in private practice and someone came to me for a rape charge I'd want a retainer in the 7.5K range and charge about $150/hr depending on the specifics. That wouldn't include appeal. If the case didn't go to trial the client would get a pretty big chunk of that 7.5K back as unbilled, but if it went to an ugly trial there would be a chance that I'd have to bill for more and I'd never get paid.

That $150/hr is well below market rates for a lawyer in this area. My clients here would be almost all working class and I don't like that this is happening at all.

It is my opinion that the public defender services should be available to all. It wouldn't add much to our caseload anyway, at least not here.



Try this on: I think that the exact same amount of public dollars should be spent on defense as well as prosecution. Fucking government has access to the FBI crime lab and can fly experts in? So should the (innocent) citizen. Prosecutor wants a "team" and the case is going to cost us $1,000,000? Fine, that amount comes out of his budget and goes to the accused to fund his defense.
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby RCC: Act II » Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:09 am

ed wrote:



Try this on: I think that the exact same amount of public dollars should be spent on defense as well as prosecution. Fucking government has access to the FBI crime lab and can fly experts in? So should the (innocent) citizen. Prosecutor wants a "team" and the case is going to cost us $1,000,000? Fine, that amount comes out of his budget and goes to the accused to fund his defense.


I'm with you, but as it is now that happens only if you are dead broke thus you get me for free and most of this happens. If you are the working poor, you get to mortgage the house to pay some asshole that mostly does title searches to fuck up your case.

Which is kinda why I'm a semi-commie. It is in a practical sense impossible to keep the generationally poor from gaming the system without fucking over people who just want to work for a living.

Then again I'm drunk.

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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby Skeeve » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:24 pm

Happy New Year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yet ANOTHER rape case disgrace: Man, 26, has his conviction quashed after spending two years in jail after bombshell Facebook messages missed by police prove his innocence

A man who spent more than two years in jail for a rape he did not commit had his conviction quashed after a relative took only a minute to uncover a series of bombshell Facebook messages – missed by police – that proved his innocence.

In the latest rape case to highlight failings in the criminal justice system, The Mail on Sunday can reveal that the jury at Danny Kay’s 2013 trial was only shown doctored transcripts of crucial Facebook chats between Mr Kay and his accuser.
...
In an exclusive interview with the MoS, Mr Kay said archived versions of the original messages – proving he had consensual sex with his accuser – were found by his sister-in-law, Sarah Maddison. When she showed the Facebook exchange to the officer in charge of the investigation, he said: ‘How did you know how to find the messages and we didn’t?’

By then, Mr Kay had spent three months in jail. It would be another three years before his conviction was overturned. The Appeal Court heard earlier this month that police relied on an ‘edited and misleading’ account of the Facebook conversation that was given to them by the complainant in the weeks after she claimed she was raped by Mr Kay.

Of course, the complainant had no reason to alter any of this right?
...
Mr Kay asked Ms Maddison to log in to his account. ‘I couldn’t believe how easy it was to find the messages,’ she said. ‘I’ve just worked in admin all my life and am no social media expert. It only took me a minute to find them so how trained police couldn’t is beyond me.’


Begs the questions I have asked before, did they just fuck up, did they choose to "white knight' for the complainant,
or are they comprised of man-hating feminists and feminist-allies, who like to throw men under the bus?

...
While he waited for his appeal, Mr Kay remained locked up with sex offenders. He was also made to see a psychiatrist because he was judged to be ‘in denial’ because of his protestations of innocence.

Yes, a success, a flaming success.
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