#MeToo (generic)....

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby RCC: Act II » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:09 pm

Really, all I take from this that either the UK handcuffs defense attorneys somehow or all UK defense attorneys are complete muppets.

Well, that and in the UK the police do the same rush to conviction bullshit in rape cases that happens in other kinds of cases.

"We stopped just ignoring rape complaints because people were whining and now they are whining because we are carelessly throwing people in jail based on rape complaints. Geez... these people don't know what they want."

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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby Skeeve » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:32 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:Really, all I take from this that either the UK handcuffs defense attorneys somehow or all UK defense attorneys are complete muppets.

Well, that and in the UK the police do the same rush to conviction bullshit in rape cases that happens in other kinds of cases.

"We stopped just ignoring rape complaints because people were whining and now they are whining because we are carelessly throwing people in jail based on rape complaints. Geez... these people don't know what they want."


I am going to guess, that is in response to this (from the previous page):
...
Begs the questions I have asked before, did they just fuck up, did they choose to "white knight' for the complainant,
or are they comprised of man-hating feminists and feminist-allies, who like to throw men under the bus?

If so, are you leaning towards the "did they just fuck up" explanation?

Consider: One lying female (and the UK justice system) cost this man 4 years of his life...
my guess is she will never see a day of jail time.

Why do I guess that?
Well, it took 15 false accusations before police-people FINALLY decided maybe this land whale
gravitationally-challenged woman was lying.
NSFW:
Well, it is probably safe, but you may loose your lunch....
Image


Link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08 ... ailed-ten/
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby RCC: Act II » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:14 pm

Skeeve wrote:If so, are you leaning towards the "did they just fuck up" explanation?

Consider: One lying female (and the UK justice system) cost this man 4 years of his life...
my guess is she will never see a day of jail time.


Pretty much the fuck up. I also don't trust any paper to properly report the details of anything criminal related, so I'd also suspect things may not be as they are portrayed.

However, cops cutting corners in a rush to put the person they "know" is guilty behind bars is beyond standard and requires no anti-man conspiracy or whatever to explain any of this.

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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby Rob Lister » Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:07 pm

Skeeve wrote:Why do I guess that?
Well, it took 15 false accusations before police-people FINALLY decided maybe this land whale
gravitationally-challenged woman was lying.
[nsfw]Well, it is probably safe, but you may loose your lunch....


I'm not sure how her weight plays a part in this. Lots of guys love fat-bottomed girls. And in this particular case you already pointed out that the facebook chats proved their was consensual sex. Can you name your logical fallacies?

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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby Skeeve » Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:09 pm

Rob Lister wrote:
Skeeve wrote:Why do I guess that?
Well, it took 15 false accusations before police-people FINALLY decided maybe this land whale
gravitationally-challenged woman was lying.
[nsfw]Well, it is probably safe, but you may loose your lunch....


I'm not sure how her weight plays a part in this. Lots of guys love fat-bottomed girls. And in this particular case you already pointed out that the facebook chats proved their was consensual sex. Can you name your logical fallacies?


Sorry if my post was miss-leading.
The 'fat-bottomed girl' was a different case from the poor schlep who lost 4 years of his life.

Lesbian fantasist invented 15 rapes and sexual assaults...
A fantasist who invented rape and sexual assault allegations against 15 men to get attention from her girlfriend has been jailed for ten years.

Jemma Beale, 25, claimed she had been raped by nine men and seriously sexually (assaulted?) by six in four different encounters over the space of three years, causing one man to be wrongly jailed.
...
Beale’s first victim, Mahad Cassim, served two years and nine months in jail, while she received £11,000 in criminal injuries compensation following the alleged rape.
...
Judge Nicholas Loraine-Smith, sitting at London’s Southwark Crown Court, told Beale she was a “very, very convincing liar” and “enjoyed being seen as a victim.”

He added: “What is particularly chilling is the manner in which you persisted in making allegations which you knew were untrue even to the extent of committing and repeating perjury.
No. What is particularly chilling is how long the police took to catch onto her.

Anyway, the case I was contrasting it to was a different case and posted on the previous page
Yet ANOTHER rape case disgrace: Man, 26, has his conviction quashed after spending two years in jail...
...
In an exclusive interview with the MoS, Mr Kay said archived versions of the original messages – proving he had consensual sex with his accuser – were found by his sister-in-law, Sarah Maddison. When she showed the Facebook exchange to the officer in charge of the investigation, he said: ‘How did you know how to find the messages and we didn’t?’

By then, Mr Kay had spent three months in jail. It would be another three years before his conviction was overturned. The Appeal Court heard earlier this month that police relied on an ‘edited and misleading’ account of the Facebook conversation that was given to them by the complainant in the weeks after she claimed she was raped by Mr Kay.


My point?:
Given the number of times the 'fat-bottomed girl' lied and perjured herself, she received 10 years in jail.

This woman who lied and cost a man 4 years of his life (name withheld due to rape shield laws - of course),
probably won't get more than a slap on the wrist if that.
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby gnome » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:13 pm

There's probably no dominant approach that can guide policy that is singularly centric on the rights of accused or accuser. An imbalance to either focus leads to gross injustice. So I think we have to avoid the temptation to argue it like we have to decide who is more important or more often wronged in order to settle on good policy.
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby Skeeve » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:55 pm

gnome wrote:There's probably no dominant approach that can guide policy that is singularly centric on the rights of accused or accuser. An imbalance to either focus leads to gross injustice. So I think we have to avoid the temptation to argue it like we have to decide who is more important or more often wronged in order to settle on good policy.


What about Blackstone's formulation?
In criminal law, Blackstone's formulation (also known as Blackstone's ratio or the Blackstone ratio) is the principle that:

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer",

...as expressed by the English jurist William Blackstone in his seminal work, Commentaries on the Laws of England, published in the 1760s.

Historically, the details of the ratio have varied, but the message that government and the courts must err on the side of innocence has remained constant.

Unless it's a woman crying rape, then fuck the accused...
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby RCC: Act II » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:55 pm

gnome wrote:There's probably no dominant approach that can guide policy that is singularly centric on the rights of accused or accuser. An imbalance to either focus leads to gross injustice. So I think we have to avoid the temptation to argue it like we have to decide who is more important or more often wronged in order to settle on good policy.


Sure. The problem is that for a very long time the policy, both in letter and practice, was slanted heavily against the (usually but not always female) victim. There is no way to address that without getting into some sort of discussion as to weighing interests, so getting to a balanced runs into the problem that always comes up in this spot:

The group whose historical advantage is being lessened is almost always going to honestly believe they are being repressed. Which is somewhere like 98% of the problem is making any real progress in social issues.

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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby RCC: Act II » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:59 pm

Skeeve wrote:
What about Blackstone's formulation?


It holds as to criminal cases. Just that his (10-1) ratio isn't exactly a no-tolerance policy towards false convictions, and shit happens.

Police cutting corners is a universal thing. Citing some allegedly wrongful convictions about sexual crimes shows that police are sloppy, but it doesn't show that this is somehow anti-male bias.

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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby Grammatron » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:12 pm

gnome wrote:There's probably no dominant approach that can guide policy that is singularly centric on the rights of accused or accuser. An imbalance to either focus leads to gross injustice. So I think we have to avoid the temptation to argue it like we have to decide who is more important or more often wronged in order to settle on good policy.


The approach isn't that different from assault or theft.
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby gnome » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:35 pm

Grammatron wrote:
gnome wrote:There's probably no dominant approach that can guide policy that is singularly centric on the rights of accused or accuser. An imbalance to either focus leads to gross injustice. So I think we have to avoid the temptation to argue it like we have to decide who is more important or more often wronged in order to settle on good policy.


The approach isn't that different from assault or theft.


I'd argue that in most cases there is not a stigma associated with reporting assault or theft. But don't get me wrong, that doesn't mean screw the presumption of innocence. What it does mean is that we should look for ways to make SEEKING justice as available for rape/sexual assaults as for other crimes, and where the balance comes in is at the same time making sure that doesn't come at the expense of a possibly innocent accused.

I think we can better serve victims without taking fairness away from the accused. The idea that it must by necessity is a false dichotomy to me.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby Grammatron » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:41 pm

gnome wrote:
Grammatron wrote:
gnome wrote:There's probably no dominant approach that can guide policy that is singularly centric on the rights of accused or accuser. An imbalance to either focus leads to gross injustice. So I think we have to avoid the temptation to argue it like we have to decide who is more important or more often wronged in order to settle on good policy.


The approach isn't that different from assault or theft.


I'd argue that in most cases there is not a stigma associated with reporting assault or theft.


What does that have to do with anything?
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby Skeeve » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:47 pm

gnome wrote:...[big snip]...
I think we can better serve victims without taking fairness away from the accused. The idea that it must by necessity is a false dichotomy to me.


From the previous page
Skeeve wrote:Also from the UK:
Police should refer to people who report rape as complainants rather than victims, senior legal figures said last night, amid warnings that the policy is undermining impartiality and leading to miscarriages of justice.

MPs and members of the judiciary have also called for an overhaul of the current guidelines which demand that officers automatically believe complainants from the outset.

Scotland Yard has ordered an urgent review of scores of sex abuse cases, including 30 which are about to go to trial, after it emerged that crucial material had been withheld from defence lawyers.
...
"There is a worry that having a rigid mindset at the beginning and accepting what they are told by the complainant is true, may lead them, at best to not realise the significance of what they are seeing, if it assists the defence, or at worst disregarding it because it doesn't fit in with their case theory."

Ya think?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12 ... ting-rape/

The best comment on that article (so far):
ed wrote:Actually, "victim" assumes facts not in evidence. "Alleged victim" would be better. If the person is represented by Gloria Allred "Purported victim" would be sound.
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby gnome » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:58 pm

Grammatron wrote:
gnome wrote:
Grammatron wrote:
gnome wrote:There's probably no dominant approach that can guide policy that is singularly centric on the rights of accused or accuser. An imbalance to either focus leads to gross injustice. So I think we have to avoid the temptation to argue it like we have to decide who is more important or more often wronged in order to settle on good policy.


The approach isn't that different from assault or theft.


I'd argue that in most cases there is not a stigma associated with reporting assault or theft.


What does that have to do with anything?


There are consistent incentives not to report, and consistent issues with the accuser being taken seriously (for example, rape kits going unexamined).

You'll say that doesn't justify changing the burden of proof. I am agreeing with you. My argument is that we can still do better.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby Grammatron » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:05 pm

gnome wrote:There are consistent incentives not to report, and consistent issues with the accuser being taken seriously (for example, rape kits going unexamined).

You'll say that doesn't justify changing the burden of proof. I am agreeing with you. My argument is that we can still do better.


Yeah but you can always have that argument, regardless of how well things are going.
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby gnome » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:14 pm

So what do I have to do to argue that it's a worthwhile effort?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby Grammatron » Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:02 pm

gnome wrote:So what do I have to do to argue that it's a worthwhile effort?


Well let's start with reviewing the reality of situation and see where efforts are actually worthwhile.

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv16.pdf

Here are some crime statistics, where to do you see deficiencies?
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby Skeeve » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:49 pm

Okay, time for another anicdote article.
Feeling the strain? Jarryd Hayne struggles to keep up with teammates ... since rape allegations
Jarryd Hayne struggled to keep up with teammates, was outrun by a young fan and even trudged off early during his first pre-season training session of the year.
Once regarded as one of the rugby league's great athletes, the 29-year-old cast a heavy figure at the Parramatta Eels' training ground on Wednesday, labouring behind even the larger forwards.
...
The pre-season training was the first time Hayne has appeared in public since his rape allegations surfaced.
Following the session Hayne said he was just 'happy to get through' it, admitting he had heavy legs and wasn't close to match fitness.
...
Following the training, Hayne spoke to reporters for the first time since a woman, known as 'Ms V', accused him of having non-consensual sexual intercourse with her in 2015, claims he strongly denies.

Legal proceedings have started in the US against Hayne, who 'unequivocally and vehemently' denied allegations he raped a virgin after a drunken night out.

Hayne repeatedly refused to comment to the barrage of questions about Ms V's claims...

Oh oh, starting to look bad...
Okay FIRST question, IS/WAS THERE there a police report?
(they don't say, but, tucked away at the very end of the article it says)
...
A criminal case was previously dismissed by District Attorney on October 25 2016 for insufficient evidence.

Which more or less implies a police report was made for this 'complainant.'

So this is a Civil Court case, from the USA to the UK?

Even so...
...
He may however have further time to build on his fitness, after NRL gender adviser Professor Catharine Lumby said she would support any suspension for the star centre, and even thinks Hayne himself should step aside until a resolution is found.

'If you are in a high-profile position, if you are accused of a serious matter like assault, whether it be civil or criminal, you should stand aside until the case is resolved,' she told the Daily Telegraph.

So how is he supposed to pay his bills while this is going on Catharine?
You going to pay him if he 'steps aside?'

I wonder if Mz V is being represented by Gloria Al-Dread?
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby RCC: Act II » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:07 pm

That one is a mess. The reference to the alleged victim being a virgin is just... weird. The awkward language about the other stuff sort of goes with my belief that this source shouldn't be taken as read without independent conformation of fact.

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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby Skeeve » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:41 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:That one is a mess. The reference to the alleged victim being a virgin is just... weird. The awkward language about the other stuff sort of goes with my belief that this source shouldn't be taken as read without independent conformation of fact.


yea, you are probably right RCC:Act II, lemme see what I can find.

Jarryd Hayne accused of rape in California while playing for 49ers in 2015

...
The civil suit comes more than one year after the case was reviewed and rejected by the District Attorney's Office, which concluded there was not enough evidence to prove the crime of rape beyond reasonable doubt.

The action filed this week includes claims of sexual battery, gender violence, infliction of emotional distress and negligence.
...
A copy of the civil court document is at the end of that article...

Image

So far it appears that Gloria (the Don King of sex-harassment litigation) Allred is not involved....
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