#MeToo (generic)....

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby ed » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:47 pm

gnome wrote:
There are consistent incentives not to report, and consistent issues with the accuser being taken seriously (for example, rape kits going unexamined).



Can you provide evidence that these are not urban legends?

Your implication is that rape kits are consistently going unexamined. That true? Or is it, as I suspect, that there are a few cases where that has occurred and those have created a summer of the shark.
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby RCC: Act II » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:07 pm

The complaint seems standard. Too early to tell what they may or may not have. That a prosecutor may have felt he couldn't prove a crime beyond a reasonable doubt doesn't affect any of this.

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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby gnome » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:12 pm

There are several sources, but here's one to start from.

https://www.npr.org/2016/01/17/46335840 ... -rape-kits

I saw articles about it in the major news of multiple states about their own state's part of the issue.

Here's Florida.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafe ... ts/2244809
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby Skeeve » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:36 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:The complaint seems standard. Too early to tell what they may or may not have. That a prosecutor may have felt he couldn't prove a crime beyond a reasonable doubt doesn't affect any of this.

Yea, well apparently she waited a while before she went to the police....
...
According to the court documents, when Ms V woke the next day Hayne was not there, and she took his undergarment "in case there was a need for testing" if she decided to report it to the police.

A virgin at the time of the alleged rape, Ms V was fearful of speaking out for several months, before later seeking medical treatment for continued vaginal pain.

She then reported the alleged incident to police in 2016, however the investigation was ultimately dropped due to insufficient evidence.

From: http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/leag ... 07u0n.html

Yes RCC:Act II, it seems that they are going to play the virgin card...

Jarryd Hayne rape accuser a Christian who was 'saving herself for marriage'
The young woman who alleges she was raped by NRL star Jarryd Hayne while she was intoxicated was a devout Christian who was saving her virginity for marriage when the alleged incident occurred in the US in 2015.

Okay, what's wrong with this picture?
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby RCC: Act II » Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:42 pm

Skeeve wrote:Yea, well apparently she waited a while before she went to the police....


Neither uncommon nor all that relevant. Reporting a rape is extremely traumatic given the amount of victim blaming that goes on.

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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby ed » Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:50 pm

gnome wrote:There are several sources, but here's one to start from.

https://www.npr.org/2016/01/17/46335840 ... -rape-kits

I saw articles about it in the major news of multiple states about their own state's part of the issue.

Here's Florida.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafe ... ts/2244809


Ahhh I see.

We were talking from two different sides. I thought you were suggesting that rapes were ignored/not prosecuted. Seems that the backlog is more related to not getting information into a database.

Stand corrected.
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby Skeeve » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:15 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
Skeeve wrote:Yea, well apparently she waited a while before she went to the police....

Neither uncommon nor all that relevant. Reporting a rape is extremely traumatic given the amount of victim blaming that goes on.

Its relevant in terms of evidence...after 'a while' it is no longer there.

...
Sean Webby, spokesman for the Santa Clara District Attorney's office, said there were four key questions considered by prosecutors in determining whether a person should be charged.

"Was there a crime?
Do we know who did it?
Can we prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt at a jury trial, and
Is charging the right thing to do?" he said.

"A prosecutor thoroughly reviews all reports and records concerning the case, including witness statements. We declined to file charges due to insufficient evidence."

Liberty said her analysis of evidence was similar to that of the DA, with the facts giving her confidence to take on the case in the civil court, where the burden of proof is lower.

She added that the simple act of "sharing what happened" would make the legal undertaking worthwhile for Ms V.
...
"So any sort of result where we get a verdict in her favour and she has the ability to obtain counselling and process what happened, that's a good day at trial."
Okay.....
I suppose riding on the coattails of the whole #MeToo thing might help too....unless people are sick of it by then.
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby RCC: Act II » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:25 pm

Skeeve wrote:Neither uncommon nor all that relevant. Reporting a rape is extremely traumatic given the amount of victim blaming that goes on.

Its relevant in terms of evidence...after 'a while' it is no longer there.
[/quote]

Obviously. It is when it is brought up as an issue of credibility that it is irrelevant.

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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby RCC: Act II » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:31 pm

ed wrote:
Ahhh I see.

We were talking from two different sides. I thought you were suggesting that rapes were ignored/not prosecuted. Seems that the backlog is more related to not getting information into a database.

Stand corrected.


It is the same thing. It is less of an issue in cases where there is an identifiable suspect to test against (although these backlog as well), but the cases where there is no identifiable suspect not developing the database is more or less ignoring and not investigating a rape.

If a cold case matches a known sample, or even if the cold case matches other cold cases, that is sort of a big deal. The rape kit backlog is essentially the system not giving enough of a shit to see if the evidence they already have will solve a rape.

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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby ed » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:06 pm

Sorta like not going after gun runners in chicago.
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby gnome » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:51 pm

Maybe. People seem willing enough to draw conclusions from that. (And they might not be wrong)... so try that here.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby ed » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:25 am

Catherine Deneuve joined more than 100 other Frenchwomen in entertainment, publishing and academic fields Tuesday in the pages of the newspaper Le Monde and on its website in arguing that the two movements, in which women and men have used social media as a forum to describe sexual misconduct, have gone too far by publicly prosecuting private experiences and have created a totalitarian climate.

“Rape is a crime. But insistent or clumsy flirting is not a crime, nor is gallantry a chauvinist aggression,” the letter, dated Monday, begins. “As a result of the Weinstein affair, there has been a legitimate realization of the sexual violence women experience, particularly in the workplace, where some men abuse their power. It was necessary. But now this liberation of speech has been turned on its head.”


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/09/movi ... ottom-well

An interesting reaction. This is the sort of thing that the loons shout down as being unworthy of discussion. Lets see..
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby gnome » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:20 pm

It's very important actually. No matter how necessary, any movement can go too far and needs brakes. It absolutely needs discussion.

"Insistent" flirting is not usually a crime, but I don't think we have a good handle on where the line is. Stalking and harassment is definitely on that spectrum.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby ed » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:03 pm

Telling someone that they are pretty is hardly an actionable offence. He'll, I've been hit on by gay guys and it was, frankly, sorta fun. Being kidnapped and duct taped in a dank basement Less so.
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby gnome » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:53 pm

It's not so often the obvious cases causing headaches for policy making.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby ed » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:06 pm

gnome wrote:It's not so often the obvious cases causing headaches for policy making.


But making policy for a miniscule number of cases is dangerous.
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby gnome » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:28 pm

So is not making policy for the most difficult kinds of cases. Otherwise the policy could be "fire the grab assers" and you wouldn't need anything more.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby Skeeve » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:32 pm

Michael Douglas Gets Out Front of Potential Harassment Story to Preemptively Deny Sordid Accusation Mike Fleming Jr Mike Fleming Jr 19 hours ago

After a storied 50 year career as actor and producer that includes two Oscars, Michael Douglas finds himself accused of something tawdry he said that he didn’t do: masturbate in front of a former employee. Noticing too many of the recent stories could be best described as She Said, He’s Gone, Douglas was uncomfortable waiting to be the villain in a narrative crafted by either The Hollywood Reporter or Variety, two publications he said have reached out to possibly publish allegations involving an employee claiming something happened over 30 years ago, which he vehemently denies. Even though he understands he is inviting scrutiny by volunteering details that could harm his career if other women come forward with more accusations, Douglas felt strongly enough that he would prefer to have some control over the narrative, that he asked to tell Deadline his story. The accusation story will most likely follow elsewhere, but in this moment of “she said, he said” trial by journalism, it was never specified whose version had to be first. So here, Douglas states his case.

Question: Where is the police report?
No police report?
30 years?
I wonder if she is (will be) represented by Gloria Allred?
...
DEADLINE: Clearly, the most serious thing being alleged is that you masturbated in front of a woman who worked for your company. You deny it. It doesn’t sound like there are other witnesses who observed it?

DOUGLAS: Correct.

DEADLINE: Just to be completely clear here. Are you saying that you never harassed this woman, or anyone else, in such a salacious manner as she has alleged to a journalist?

DOUGLAS: Absolutely; that’s exactly what I am saying.

I hope he sues her into the stone age...
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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:44 pm

But he's dead. :|

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Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Postby Carr » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:20 am

gnome wrote:So is not making policy for the most difficult kinds of cases. Otherwise the policy could be "fire the grab assers" and you wouldn't need anything more.


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