#MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

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#MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by Skeeve » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:23 pm

Skeeve wrote:As More College Students Say “Me Too,” Accused Men Are Suing For Defamation
More people are sharing their “Me Too” stories, but a backlash has been brewing at colleges across the country, with accused students filing defamation suits against women who say they were assaulted.
About a month after her divorce was finalized, a PhD student at Washington University in St. Louis was walking across campus when a stranger approached and asked for her name. Once she identified herself, the stranger quickly handed her an envelope before disappearing. Inside, there was some unsettling news: her ex-husband was suing her for defamation. Her offense: reporting to the university’s Title IX office that he had raped her. It was late in the day, so she spent a nerve-wracking night until she could contact an attorney and start on a journey that would drain her savings as she tried to prove she'd told the truth.
Begs the question, if her (then) husband had raped her, why did she not file a police report?
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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by Skeeve » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:24 pm

Skeeve wrote:As More College Students Say “Me Too,” Accused Men Are Suing For Defamation

...

Begs the question, if her (then) husband had raped her, why did she not file a police report?
Maybe this is why.
...
In April 2011, the Education Department told universities they should weigh sexual-violence cases using a standard of proof called “preponderance of the evidence.

Common in civil law, this standard is less demanding than the “clear and convincing evidence” threshold that some schools had used in disciplinary proceedings and the “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard that would be required for conviction in a criminal court. The federal guidance on this point has been controversial.
link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/ed ... cbb23ff603
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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by gnome » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:45 pm

I think it's probably not a coincidence that the evidence standard matches that of civil cases--maybe they are concerned about liability.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by Grammatron » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:56 pm

gnome wrote:I think it's probably not a coincidence that the evidence standard matches that of civil cases--maybe they are concerned about liability.
No, POTUS (Obama) decided to Do Something (TM) about all the "rape culture" on college campuses. This resulted in kangaroo courts on campuses with the most infamous example being Rolling Stones expose on how to kill journalism.

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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by Skeeve » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:58 pm

gnome wrote:I think it's probably not a coincidence that the evidence standard matches that of civil cases--maybe they are concerned about liability.
Yea, maybe. However there are constitutional issues here, (like due process).
I believe that is what the suits are about.
...
Since 2011, more than 150 lawsuits have been filed against colleges and universities involving claims of due-process violations during the course of Title IX investigations and proceedings related to sex-assault allegations, according to a database kept by a group called Title IX For All. In the two decades before that year, the group found, only 15 such lawsuits were filed against universities.
...
SAVE Services, a Maryland-based group that seeks to highlight what it calls “rape hoaxes” and protect the rights of the accused in sexual-assault cases, found in a survey that about 70 percent of these types of lawsuits filed against colleges from 1993 to 2015 ended in settlements or rulings that at least partially benefited the plaintiffs.
...
But many plaintiffs are finding success in court with arguments that internal college investigations were flawed or biased.

“Now judges are digging deeper,” said Brett Sokolow, a lawyer who is president of the National Center for Higher Education Risk Management. “They are losing trust in the good faith that colleges had when addressing these situations. And that’s a very dangerous position for colleges.”

Miltenberg said a crucial juncture in the lawsuits comes when judges are asked to rule on university motions to dismiss the plaintiff’s complaint. Often judges side with colleges. But a growing number of suits, Miltenberg said, are surviving the dismissal motion. That means the cases move to the fact-finding phase known as discovery.

Anxious to avoid that phase, many universities then choose to settle out of court. Often, the terms of the settlement call for the administration to rehear the original sex-assault allegation, with a new focus on protecting the accused student’s due-process rights.
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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by gnome » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:36 pm

Grammatron wrote:
gnome wrote:I think it's probably not a coincidence that the evidence standard matches that of civil cases--maybe they are concerned about liability.
No, POTUS (Obama) decided to Do Something (TM) about all the "rape culture" on college campuses. This resulted in kangaroo courts on campuses with the most infamous example being Rolling Stones expose on how to kill journalism.
It wasn't so much a nebulous issue--there was a real problem with universities sweeping complaints under the rug. I could be persuaded that current standards break due process in the other direction. There's no reason for them to be immutable if there's a demonstrable problem.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by Grammatron » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:40 pm

gnome wrote:
Grammatron wrote:
gnome wrote:I think it's probably not a coincidence that the evidence standard matches that of civil cases--maybe they are concerned about liability.
No, POTUS (Obama) decided to Do Something (TM) about all the "rape culture" on college campuses. This resulted in kangaroo courts on campuses with the most infamous example being Rolling Stones expose on how to kill journalism.
It wasn't so much a nebulous issue--there was a real problem with universities sweeping complaints under the rug.
Was there?
I could be persuaded that current standards break due process in the other direction.
It breaks it by design, not sure what persuasion is needed.
There's no reason for them to be immutable if there's a demonstrable problem.
I could be persuaded that certain convicted felons should be barred from attending Universities, but first there must be due process.

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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by RCC: Act II » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:23 pm

gnome wrote:I think it's probably not a coincidence that the evidence standard matches that of civil cases--maybe they are concerned about liability.


I suspect they are just wanting to rule for the side with more evidence.

The macroscopic view is that we are moving towards the belief that having to see and deal with your falsely cleared sexual assaulter in school is as traumatizing and harmful as being falsely found to have committed same. This wouldn't apply in a criminal context, just in the context of what the school should do.

The scales were loaded towards preventing false findings of assault, and in trying to make it more even the scale is sometimes tipping the other way.

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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by gnome » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:34 am

Grammatron wrote: It breaks it by design, not sure what persuasion is needed.
I guess I'd rather discuss what the policy should be than the motives of the people making policy. I already don't trust them, but we still need a policy.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by Grammatron » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:49 am

gnome wrote:
Grammatron wrote: It breaks it by design, not sure what persuasion is needed.
I guess I'd rather discuss what the policy should be than the motives of the people making policy. I already don't trust them, but we still need a policy.
Report crimes to proper authorities, like any other crime.

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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by gnome » Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:14 am

Here I found a case made for why to have a parallel system within school administration. I'm not insisting they're correct--but does it hold up?

https://www.knowyourix.org/issues/schoo ... e-reports/
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by Grammatron » Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:28 am

gnome wrote:Here I found a case made for why to have a parallel system within school administration. I'm not insisting they're correct--but does it hold up?

https://www.knowyourix.org/issues/schoo ... e-reports/
Not for me. It's a criminal issue that should be handled by police and DA. If they are not doing their job then the solution is to hold them accountable.

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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by gnome » Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:19 am

And of the idea that there needs to be actions taken outside police authority? an HR department of a corporation might have to decide what to do if the two people in the dispute are on the same work team. Colleges probably have similar issues to decide. I'd argue they need a system besides the criminal justice system just like a workplace needs harassment policies besides just calling the police if it's serious.

Whether this is the WAY to do it so is something I consider debatable. But I'm fairly convinced of the need.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by Grammatron » Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:36 am

gnome wrote:And of the idea that there needs to be actions taken outside police authority? an HR department of a corporation might have to decide what to do if the two people in the dispute are on the same work team. Colleges probably have similar issues to decide. I'd argue they need a system besides the criminal justice system just like a workplace needs harassment policies besides just calling the police if it's serious.

Whether this is the WAY to do it so is something I consider debatable. But I'm fairly convinced of the need.
What convinced you of the need?

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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by Doctor X » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:36 am

Trial by ordeal.

For my amusement.

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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by ed » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:15 pm

gnome wrote:Here I found a case made for why to have a parallel system within school administration. I'm not insisting they're correct--but does it hold up?

https://www.knowyourix.org/issues/schoo ... e-reports/
No, not even a little bit.

These people have no training in law or in criminal procedures. They gleefully created kangaroo courts that would have been the envy of the Cultural Revolution. You note that they assume many facts not in evidence to justify their extra-legal proceedings. In other words, they are spit shining their surgical instruments before they start.

Crimes should be handled by LE, not limp dicked snowflake wannabes.
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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by ed » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:24 pm

gnome wrote:And of the idea that there needs to be actions taken outside police authority? an HR department of a corporation might have to decide what to do if the two people in the dispute are on the same work team. Colleges probably have similar issues to decide. I'd argue they need a system besides the criminal justice system just like a workplace needs harassment policies besides just calling the police if it's serious.

Whether this is the WAY to do it so is something I consider debatable. But I'm fairly convinced of the need.
Stupid HR issues are not even on the same planet as a purported felony. If harassment rises to a criminal level, damn right the cops should be called. You would leave it to some HR manager with a ba in business? Are you serious? Are you drinking already?

Thing with these SJW issues is that there is no underlying principle for the actions. It is kneejerk feel-good stuff. What the argument is is that one (an entity of individual) can take the law into their own hands if they "feel" that they will not like the results of dealing with the legal system. That really is it, isn't it?

So, the edifice of western law, accreted over many centuries and constructed to protect the innocent more than to punish the guilty can, if the principle holds, be dismissed if one does not want to deal with it. How in any way whatsoever is that a good thing? The logical implication is that shiara law, which protects wife beating, might well be a good alternative to real law if the beater does not hold that he will get justice. That work for you?
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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by RCC: Act II » Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:07 pm

ed wrote: The logical implication is that shiara law, which protects wife beating, might well be a good alternative to real law if the beater does not hold that he will get justice. That work for you?
The whole thing can be understood in terms of alternative dispute resolution. Just because something is of a criminal nature does not mean it needs to addressed otherwise.

When a student goes to a college, the student agrees to the dispute resolution processes the college uses as to conduct issues like academic fraud or being a menace to campus safety or whatever.

In theory, there is nothing wrong in using sharia law in this way. Your example wouldn't prevent the state from convicting him for battery, but if the parties agree to use sharia law it is no different than any other set of arbitration rules. He might not get kicked out of the mosque or whatever.

All of this is subject to due process concerns and public safety laws and so on. The campus system also has to comply with title IX. The part about Sharia law cutting off hands wouldn't fly, for example.

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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by gnome » Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:53 pm

ed wrote:
gnome wrote:And of the idea that there needs to be actions taken outside police authority? an HR department of a corporation might have to decide what to do if the two people in the dispute are on the same work team. Colleges probably have similar issues to decide. I'd argue they need a system besides the criminal justice system just like a workplace needs harassment policies besides just calling the police if it's serious.

Whether this is the WAY to do it so is something I consider debatable. But I'm fairly convinced of the need.
Stupid HR issues are not even on the same planet as a purported felony. If harassment rises to a criminal level, damn right the cops should be called. You would leave it to some HR manager with a ba in business? Are you serious? Are you drinking already?

Thing with these SJW issues is that there is no underlying principle for the actions. It is kneejerk feel-good stuff. What the argument is is that one (an entity of individual) can take the law into their own hands if they "feel" that they will not like the results of dealing with the legal system. That really is it, isn't it?

So, the edifice of western law, accreted over many centuries and constructed to protect the innocent more than to punish the guilty can, if the principle holds, be dismissed if one does not want to deal with it. How in any way whatsoever is that a good thing? The logical implication is that shiara law, which protects wife beating, might well be a good alternative to real law if the beater does not hold that he will get justice. That work for you?
I think you've missed the point, the idea is not to bypass using the legal system, which you would still do in an actual criminal situation--the purpose is to resolve issues other than those in the jurisdiction of criminal justice. Police and judges don't decide whether to expel students or professors; or even something less drastic like whether and how to rearrange their schedule if a harassment case creates a conflict of interest for assigning grades.
Last edited by gnome on Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by gnome » Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:53 pm

Grammatron wrote:
gnome wrote:And of the idea that there needs to be actions taken outside police authority? an HR department of a corporation might have to decide what to do if the two people in the dispute are on the same work team. Colleges probably have similar issues to decide. I'd argue they need a system besides the criminal justice system just like a workplace needs harassment policies besides just calling the police if it's serious.

Whether this is the WAY to do it so is something I consider debatable. But I'm fairly convinced of the need.
What convinced you of the need?
What convinced me is understanding issues that come up that the police and the justice system aren't for.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2