#MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by Grammatron » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:50 pm

gnome wrote:
Grammatron wrote:
gnome wrote:And of the idea that there needs to be actions taken outside police authority? an HR department of a corporation might have to decide what to do if the two people in the dispute are on the same work team. Colleges probably have similar issues to decide. I'd argue they need a system besides the criminal justice system just like a workplace needs harassment policies besides just calling the police if it's serious.

Whether this is the WAY to do it so is something I consider debatable. But I'm fairly convinced of the need.
What convinced you of the need?
What convinced me is understanding issues that come up that the police and the justice system aren't for.
The issue, as I understand it, is rape, which are one of the many criminal issues the police and the justice system are designed to address.

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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by RCC: Act II » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:55 pm

Grammatron wrote:
The issue, as I understand it, is rape, which are one of the many criminal issues the police and the justice system are designed to address.
Not fully. The criminal system is about punishment, the civil is about redressing harm and making a victim whole, and the college system is about campus safety and how that relates to education access.

Three different interests served by three different types of proceedings.

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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by Grammatron » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:02 pm

RCC: Act II wrote: Not fully. The criminal system is about punishment, the civil is about redressing harm and making a victim whole, and the college system is about campus safety and how that relates to education access.

Three different interests served by three different types of proceedings.
That's very noble and all but the victims tend to the accused.

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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by ed » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:06 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
Grammatron wrote:
The issue, as I understand it, is rape, which are one of the many criminal issues the police and the justice system are designed to address.
Not fully. The criminal system is about punishment, the civil is about redressing harm and making a victim whole, and the college system is about campus safety and how that relates to education access.

Three different interests served by three different types of proceedings.
How, specifically, are the rights of the accused protected in a college proceeding?
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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by Skeeve » Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:48 pm

ed wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote:
Grammatron wrote:
The issue, as I understand it, is rape, which are one of the many criminal issues the police and the justice system are designed to address.
Not fully. The criminal system is about punishment, the civil is about redressing harm and making a victim whole, and the college system is about campus safety and how that relates to education access.

Three different interests served by three different types of proceedings.
How, specifically, are the rights of the accused protected in a college proceeding?
Not very well IMHO.
Campus sexual assault policies are unfair to the accused. This case shows how.

Another written by a female professor, who apparently managed to trigger a couple of snowflakes:
My Title IX Inquisition
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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by RCC: Act II » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:10 pm

Grammatron wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote: Not fully. The criminal system is about punishment, the civil is about redressing harm and making a victim whole, and the college system is about campus safety and how that relates to education access.

Three different interests served by three different types of proceedings.
That's very noble and all but the victims tend to the accused.
I'm not being snarky, but I'm assuming there is a word or two missing from that and I'm not clear of the meaning.

If it is the word "be" between "to" and "the", my response is that I live in a reality where false accusations of sexual assault are way, way less in number than are campus sexual assaults.

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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by RCC: Act II » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:15 pm

ed wrote:
How, specifically, are the rights of the accused protected in a college proceeding?
Depends on the college. It should be in line with any other sort of administrative hearing process.

Compared to the criminal system, not much, but on the other hand, the criminal system can jail you for months pending trial based on a preliminary hearing that requires only a showing of probable cause. Compared to that, probably more.

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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by RCC: Act II » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:23 pm

Skeeve wrote: Not very well IMHO.
Campus sexual assault policies are unfair to the accused. This case shows how.

Another written by a female professor, who apparently managed to trigger a couple of snowflakes:
My Title IX Inquisition
Anecdotes are useful, but one could likewise uncover a ton of anecdotes that illustrate the horror story of being raped and having the system be completely ambivalent if not hostile to the claim.

It is a difficult issue, and any system of justice is going to have inequities that cause unfortunate results. Those need to be considered in context; failure to do so is what leads towards policies and law that creates more unfortunate results.

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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by gnome » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:05 pm

If a necessary task is performed poorly, it needs to be fixed, not abandoned. If you are disputing its necessity, talking about how poorly it is done is dancing to the other question of implementation without really addressing the necessity.

Pick one to argue.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by Skeeve » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:40 pm

ed wrote: [...big snip...]
How, specifically, are the rights of the accused protected in a college proceeding?
This might be a bit more of an answer ed, full disclosure its from a law firm and may only apply in their state or local (Boston MA), so...

So You’ve Been Accused of Sexual Assault or Misconduct on Campus. Here’s What You Need to Know

Question for you RCC:
Is this about the same range of rights and differences (between criminal and TITLE IX procedures) where you are?
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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by ed » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:51 pm

I actually knew the answer but thank you for the lob over the plate (I am trying to be more guy-like by using sports analogies more frequently).

Hey RC.2, you in Boston? I may need to sue a fucking deadbeat company.
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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by RCC: Act II » Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:25 pm

Skeeve wrote:
Question for you RCC:
Is this about the same range of rights and differences (between criminal and TITLE IX procedures) where you are?
My immediate experience, at least as to today, is only with criminal stuff. People have an unrealistic idea of how well it protects their rights.

You can suffer worse consequences through the criminal system with a lesser standard of guilt and not all that much more, if more, transparency than through the title 9 stuff. You could be publicly charged and held for months pending trial based on a probable cause hearing and/or another finding of probable cause by a tribunal that you don't get to address or in some cases even know it is meeting.

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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by ed » Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:42 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
Grammatron wrote:
The issue, as I understand it, is rape, which are one of the many criminal issues the police and the justice system are designed to address.
Not fully. The criminal system is about punishment, the civil is about redressing harm and making a victim whole, and the college system is about campus safety and how that relates to education access.

Three different interests served by three different types of proceedings.
Only one of which actually does it for a living as opposed to play-acting, and violating rights that they are only dimly aware of.
The criminal system is about punishment, the civil is about redressing harm and making a victim whole
Which together are our justice system.
the college system is about campus safety and how that relates to education access
Right.
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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by RCC: Act II » Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:03 pm

ed wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote:
the college system is about campus safety and how that relates to education access
Right.
The quality of this system can be debated, but the school's right to have an internal discipline system to further these goals can't.

Schools should probably hire retired judges and such to form a board that oversees the process and otherwise clean up their act rather than have it be mostly developed by mad academics with somewhat valid grudges to settle about the history of college sexual misconduct being swept under the rug.

It would make a lot of sense for schools to have an optional discipline review process ran by people with no connection to the university and thus no interest in using these cases to form a narrative for political or marketing purposes.

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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by ed » Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:45 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
ed wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote:
the college system is about campus safety and how that relates to education access
Right.
The quality of this system can be debated, but the school's right to have an internal discipline system to further these goals can't.

Schools should probably hire retired judges and such to form a board that oversees the process and otherwise clean up their act rather than have it be mostly developed by mad academics with somewhat valid grudges to settle about the history of college sexual misconduct being swept under the rug.

It would make a lot of sense for schools to have an optional discipline review process ran by people with no connection to the university and thus no interest in using these cases to form a narrative for political or marketing purposes.
Yup.

Meanwhile, there should be a criminal version of the Logan Act that specifies horsewhipping as a penalty for snowflake wannabes that purport (<--- see?) to be lawyers and know anything about human rights.
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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by Witness » Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:56 am

RCC: Act II wrote:mostly developed by mad academics
Same for curricula. :(

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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by Skeeve » Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:40 pm

Time for another story: The Uncomfortable Truth About Campus Rape Policy
Kwadwo “kojo” bonsu, 23, was on track to graduate in the spring of 2016 with a degree in chemical engineering from the University of Massachusetts at Amherst. Bonsu, who was born in Maryland, is the son of Ghanaian immigrants. He chose UMass because it gave him the opportunity to pursue his two passions, science and music. He told me he hoped to get a doctorate in polymer science or chemical engineering. At UMass he was a member of the National Society of Black Engineers. He also joined a fraternity (he was the only black member), played guitar in a campus jazz band, and tutored jazz guitarists at a local high school.
It follows a variation of what I am beginning to consider "the same old story."
...
Bonsu decided never to return to UMass. He applied to universities in other states, but was not accepted. He spent a year studying music at a community college, unable to pursue his engineering degree. Eventually he was accepted into the engineering program at the University of Maryland at Baltimore County, for the fall semester of 2016, a year and a half after he had left UMass. He is on track to finally graduate from college in the fall of 2018. UMass denied Bonsu’s allegations against it and otherwise declined to comment. Last September, his lawsuit against the university was settled for undisclosed terms.
In other words, they KNEW they fucked up, and decided to cut their losses.
The way in which Bonsu’s case was handled may seem perverse, but many of the university’s actions—the interim restrictions, the full-bore investigation and adjudication even though R.M.’s own statement does not describe a sexual assault—were mandated or strongly encouraged by federal rules that govern the handling of sexual-assault allegations on campus today. These rules proliferated during Barack Obama’s administration, as did threats of sanctions if schools didn’t follow them precisely.
Thanks Obama!
...
Harvard now has 55 Title IX coordinators (though an undisclosed number of them have additional duties). Wellesley College last year announced its first full-time coordinator to oversee sex discrimination on its all-female campus. Ozarks Technical Community College, which has no residential facilities and has had one report of sexual assault since 2013, now has a full-time Title IX coordinator.
I wonder how many of them are gender studies grad's.
:D
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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by ed » Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:48 pm

I wonder if suc proceedings are violations of human rights? Wonder if you could get redress in the Hague?
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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by RCC: Act II » Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:14 pm

ed wrote:I wonder if suc proceedings are violations of human rights? Wonder if you could get redress in the Hague?
College disciplinary proceedings? Um. No.

I mean, this is exactly the sort of thing I'd say, except I'd mocking this procession of anecdotes.

(The only indication of university wrongdoing is the undisclosed settlement, which is also the sort of thing that also happens in nuisance lawsuits)

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Re: #MeTo (TITLE IX edition)

Post by ed » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:01 pm

The plural of anecdote is not evidence yet many of these things rise above mere storytelling.
If it is a fact that one in the Star Chamber cannot have a lawyer that is a severe problem, as is not having early access to all "evidence" as well as ... well, you get the idea. Are these assertions lies?
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