Facebook is scrapping its system of flagging fake news because it had 'the opposite effect to what we intended'

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Facebook is scrapping its system of flagging fake news because it had 'the opposite effect to what we intended'

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:28 pm

Facebook is scrapping its system of flagging fake news because it had 'the opposite effect to what we intended'
Business Insider

Short version: Flagging Fox et al as 'fake news' only encourages deplorables to share it. :lmao:
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Re: Facebook is scrapping its system of flagging fake news because it had 'the opposite effect to what we intended'

Postby Rob Lister » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:35 pm

Yea. I read the article (or one like it but maybe less fake).

The "flag" they set made it clickbait. What the fuck did they think was going to happen? Then again, just because more people click it anyway is not a measure of how much they believe it.

"Hey! Here's fake article! Let's click."

Really, isn't that it in a nutshell?

How about they just mind their own business.

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Re: Facebook is scrapping its system of flagging fake news because it had 'the opposite effect to what we intended'

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:20 pm

Analysis:
Democrats talked themselves into believing that Facebook is a mind control app (because Russians), but really it's not.
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Re: Facebook is scrapping its system of flagging fake news because it had 'the opposite effect to what we intended'

Postby RCC: Act II » Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:49 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:Analysis:
Democrats talked themselves into believing that Facebook is a mind control app (because Russians), but really it's not.


Propaganda is a thing. As to the people I know, the fake news (by that I mean totally made up shit) and the feedback loop didn't persuade as much as harden opinions past the point of reason by various means, some intentional, some not.

Mostly it was the memes that did this, not straight fake news. A picture with a flippant caption can get away with way more questionable factual assertions and preposterous reasoning than if that same thing was put in writing, and take way too many words to deconstruct and show to be bullshit.

A side item of this is the "kidding on the square" problem. This is where a toxic political claim is framed in way that if the person providing it is accurately called out on it, that person can claim it wasn't all that serious but just joking around. So if you do bother to deconstruct the meme you are brushed off as a humorless asshole. Meanwhile, the humorous nature of the communication makes it more, not less, likely to affect someone already disposed to agree with it.

If it were possible to ban the spread of political memes it would do more for improving facebook's effect on politics than a whole army of fact-checkers. It isn't.

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Re: Facebook is scrapping its system of flagging fake news because it had 'the opposite effect to what we intended'

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:00 pm

Propaganda != Svengali like mind control.

Do you really believe a few shitposts by Russians "stole" the election?
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Re: Facebook is scrapping its system of flagging fake news because it had 'the opposite effect to what we intended'

Postby RCC: Act II » Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:24 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:Propaganda != Svengali like mind control.

Do you really believe a few shitposts by Russians "stole" the election?


The margins were so slim in battleground states that anything with any tangible effect favoring Trump could be rightly considered to be decisive. The propaganda was more about hardening/radicalizing Hillary hate than it was convincing undecideds, so it may have been decisive, but...

My guess is that the propaganda had way more effect on the GOP primary process than the general election, and that electing Trump in the general was not the goal. It was to harden a small but significant level of fanatical opposition to a Clinton presidency. As to that, a Trump win is arguably a blunder. As I said before, liberals tend to be pussies, and in this case the hate for Trump comes mostly from a place of smugness rather than full out rage against total evil that must be stopped. These people can't quit being mad about Hillary, and she lost...

The Russian bullshit makes a lot more sense when viewed in that light.

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Re: Facebook is scrapping its system of flagging fake news because it had 'the opposite effect to what we intended'

Postby ed » Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:34 pm

RCC: Act II wrote: fake news (by that I mean totally made up shit)


Definitions are important.

I see a continuum of non-straight reporting of which, what you refer to as "fake news" is one extreme. Then there are stories that accentuate elements that are so far off the mark that they are one step away from lies, things that have the form "Trump does not comment of wife beating allegations" where the story has nothing to do with the headline. There is reporting that excludes relevant facts, generally positive facts when it comes to Trump, that might be next on such a continuum. Reporting on his remarks in Saudi Arabia come to mind. Adroit non-reporting and subtle misreporting are, to my eye, the norm. These pieces often have subtle digs that no responsible journalist would ever write and no responsible editor would ever countenance.

Trump, I think, paints the whole mess as "fake news" and I am coming to see his point. Reporting seems to have an object of undermining rather than transmission of information that is objective. I suspect that like good SJW reporters see their pov as being objective. Sorta like Mike Wallace's much and reprehensible comment when his story about Bush turned out to be shit: it was accurate but not true or words to that effect. Bullshit.
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Re: Facebook is scrapping its system of flagging fake news because it had 'the opposite effect to what we intended'

Postby ed » Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:42 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:Propaganda != Svengali like mind control.

Do you really believe a few shitposts by Russians "stole" the election?


The margins were so slim in battleground states that anything with any tangible effect favoring Trump could be rightly considered to be decisive. The propaganda was more about hardening/radicalizing Hillary hate than it was convincing undecideds, so it may have been decisive, but...


This assumes a passive Hillary campaign that did not respond and have a POV that countered other, non-favorable, Hillary stories. That is simply not factual. Hillary outspent, by a large margin, Trump. If you are saying that there is a butterfly effect then I suggest that her fainting had a far greater effect. When you are dealing with noise and start seeing patterns or cause and effect you are ready for PEAR. That "effort" was more about wishful thinking that anything factual.

My guess is that the propaganda had way more effect on the GOP primary process than the general election, and that electing Trump in the general was not the goal. It was to harden a small but significant level of fanatical opposition to a Clinton presidency. As to that, a Trump win is arguably a blunder. As I said before, liberals tend to be pussies, and in this case the hate for Trump comes mostly from a place of smugness rather than full out rage against total evil that must be stopped. These people can't quit being mad about Hillary, and she lost...

The Russian bullshit makes a lot more sense when viewed in that light.


I would love to see some evidence that any bureaucracy, anywhere in the world, could actually pull off what exists, in my opinion, only in the fevered imaginations of hollywood scriptwriters.
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Re: Facebook is scrapping its system of flagging fake news because it had 'the opposite effect to what we intended'

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:04 pm

In short, RCC does believe that Facebook is a mind control app. :lmao:
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Re: Facebook is scrapping its system of flagging fake news because it had 'the opposite effect to what we intended'

Postby RCC: Act II » Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:15 pm

ed wrote:
I would love to see some evidence that any bureaucracy, anywhere in the world, could actually pull off what exists, in my opinion, only in the fevered imaginations of hollywood scriptwriters.


Macedonians did most of it by accident and in pursuit of like 30K/yr revenue. They posted a lot of made up / laughably distorted stuff that appealed to Trump voters because that is what got the clicks.

Russian interference isn't bureaucracy, just a bunch of people being paid to troll social media about politics. Most of it is comically inept, but some of it sticks depending on how badly the listener wants to believe it.

That it didn't happen would be harder to believe.

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Re: Facebook is scrapping its system of flagging fake news because it had 'the opposite effect to what we intended'

Postby ed » Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:22 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
ed wrote:
I would love to see some evidence that any bureaucracy, anywhere in the world, could actually pull off what exists, in my opinion, only in the fevered imaginations of hollywood scriptwriters.


Macedonians did most of it by accident and in pursuit of like 30K/yr revenue. They posted a lot of made up / laughably distorted stuff that appealed to Trump voters because that is what got the clicks.

Russian interference isn't bureaucracy, just a bunch of people being paid to troll social media about politics. Most of it is comically inept, but some of it sticks depending on how badly the listener wants to believe it.

That it didn't happen would be harder to believe.


So I ask you, who gives a shit? Really.

We do it. They do it. I fucking do it and so do you. You repost a picture of Iron Putin you are working for the fucking Kremlin. What bullshit.

So what? And how much is this crap costing us? Is there any there there? And at the end, as they throw a couple of poor jamokes into the slammer (only to be pardoned by Trump) what peanut, where, is moved ahead by how much?

I'll tell you what is important. I am looking at a minty Persian contract Artillery Luger and am trying to justify the cost in my head, given that I just settled my Bro's estate and sold his house. That IS IMPORTANT. It matters.

This Russian crap is simply a physical manifestation of liberal butthurt, like some odd supernatural thing.
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Re: Facebook is scrapping its system of flagging fake news because it had 'the opposite effect to what we intended'

Postby RCC: Act II » Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:22 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:In short, RCC does believe that Facebook is a mind control app. :lmao:


In the same exact way any delivery method of any form of communication intended to persuade, is a mind control app.

Grow up.

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Re: Facebook is scrapping its system of flagging fake news because it had 'the opposite effect to what we intended'

Postby ed » Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:25 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:In short, RCC does believe that Facebook is a mind control app. :lmao:


In the same exact way any delivery method of any form of communication intended to persuade, is a mind control app.

Grow up.


Ergo it is a commonplace. It is baseline. Who cares.
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Re: Facebook is scrapping its system of flagging fake news because it had 'the opposite effect to what we intended'

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:39 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:Analysis:
Democrats talked themselves into believing that Facebook is a mind control app (because Russians), but really it's not.


I stand by this analysis of the OP.

However I will clarify that "influence" or "propaganda" is not the the same as mind control, which only exists in fiction and in the imagination of fanatics.

I will further amplify that the formerly mainstream media people show every indication of thinking they used to be effective at mind control, but really they were only effective at suppressing negative feedback.
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Re: Facebook is scrapping its system of flagging fake news because it had 'the opposite effect to what we intended'

Postby RCC: Act II » Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:45 pm

ed wrote:
This Russian crap is simply a physical manifestation of liberal butthurt, like some odd supernatural thing.


True for some people, I suppose.

It probably caused (using caused in it's broad sense) Trump to be elected, but that doesn't mean that the actual people going into actual booths and casting actual votes isn't the by far most important proximate cause.

If this were a coordinated effort in any way, it is a problem. Not so much because it had an effect on the election as because that sort of thing is really illegal for other reasons.

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Re: Facebook is scrapping its system of flagging fake news because it had 'the opposite effect to what we intended'

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:46 pm

Also, it's not as if Hillaryites didn't post memes on Facebook too, and a lot more than the Russians, quite a bit of it out of love rather than for money.

Not to mention the > 10^9 dollars in media buys.

So what was so devilishly clever about the Russians?

Mind control, that's what. It was Putin's specialty back when he was a Soviet master spy. :BigGrin3:
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Re: Facebook is scrapping its system of flagging fake news because it had 'the opposite effect to what we intended'

Postby RCC: Act II » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:48 pm

ed wrote:
Ergo it is a commonplace. It is baseline. Who cares.


I don't think it would be a big deal without foreign involvement. At most a moderate violation of our political campaign laws.


My winding explanation and attempt to weed out some strawmen and confusion. There are a bunch of little laws and details (registration as foreign agent stuff) that I'm ignoring because they really don't speak to the big picture of What Is The Big Deal.

Any discussion of election stealing is bullshit or at least irresponsible rhetoric. Yeah, dirty stuff happens in politics and it could be decisive. Welcome to reality. Absent proof of direct vote counting fraud, STFU about election stealing. It just clouds things. What I am posting is not about that, so leave that shit behind for the whackjobs and just get that strawman out of your head because, again, this is not about the legitimacy of the election.

Okay....

Part of what the campaign laws do is seek to police something that is essentially communications fraud*. Fraud in the sense of general dishonesty rather than in the formal legal sense. Legitimate advertisements are presented for what they are. Such presentation reduces the inherent credibility because the listener knows what it is and can apply a level of scrutiny given the source. This is why political ads from a campaign are required to present themselves as same.

(*This is also about money, but that is left out to simplify things)

A private person not connected to the entity in question that is just a fan or otherwise likes the product is not subject to this limitation. This is why people trust the reviews on Amazon more than they trust the ad copy for the product. There is not as much suspicion about the source.

When an entity pays people to portray themselves as just common folk giving an opinion or attesting to a fact, it avoids the natural filter we give to advertising. This is why it is scummy for a company to use sockpuppets to give itself good reviews. Election laws try to filter this out by requiring a campaign to reveal themselves when they are behind advertising.

Getting to the point:

PACs can be used as an easy workaround to these laws. As long as the PAC has no coordination with a campaign and avoids a few token restrictions, it can just go nuts and present itself as a non-party giving an honest opinion. Non-retarded campaigns manage to use this workaround in ways that violate the spirit of the law but not the letter. Violating these laws should be punished and loopholes closed, but in the great scheme of things, no big deal.

What the Russians did during this election, in effect, was act like a PAC by flooding social media with stuff designed to help Trump. This is illegal, but good luck prosecuting Russia. This is why there is hand-wringing over social media making this sort of thing really easy to do. If that is all there is, then yawn and shame on us and do better next time. Trying to address this issue isn't Trump-specific.

The way any of this could be illegal to the point of Really Big Deal is if a campaign coordinates with a foreign power to circumvent these laws. That is illegal both in that it brings foreign money/assistance into a campaign and violates those disclosure laws.

A campaign coordinating with a foreign power to circumvent campaign laws is troubling. Just how troubling depends on the nature of the coordination. This is the point it can possibly be an issue of national security rather than just good old fashioned dirty politics depending on the nature of the coordination. If it were a few idiots acting on their own initiative, then jail for them and move on with life. If that is what it is, the administration demonizing the FBI to hinder the investigation would be the stupid unnecessary excess that would be pretty much par for the course.

We know the Russians acted as a pac, and we know there was some level of communication. Probing whether it goes deeper than that is worthwhile.

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Re: Facebook is scrapping its system of flagging fake news because it had 'the opposite effect to what we intended'

Postby ed » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:08 pm

How do we know that they worked to help Trump?

Seems to me that with the reset, the Clinton/Obama organized crime families would have been far more likely beneficiaries. Also, Hillary is a mendacious little cocksucker who would probably be far more open to bribes. What did her boy Carville say? "Drag a hundred-dollar bill through a trailer park, you never know what you'll find." The context was Bills rape victims but he was clearly thinking about Hillary.

Who do you think is more open to a bribe?
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Re: Facebook is scrapping its system of flagging fake news because it had 'the opposite effect to what we intended'

Postby RCC: Act II » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:29 pm

ed wrote:How do we know that they worked to help Trump?

The source and content makes the intention clear. The effect it has is irrelevant.


Who do you think is more open to a bribe?


Doesn't matter, and has nothing to do with what I am posting. Hillary Clinton could be a North Korean agent that eats children, and Bill could have raped a whole busload of nuns while posting every national security secret he knows on facebook. Has nothing to do with any of this.

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Re: Facebook is scrapping its system of flagging fake news because it had 'the opposite effect to what we intended'

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:53 pm

Let's not get sidetracked here.

The point of the OP isn't whether the Russians did this or that, or how effective it was. Or how totally fucking evil Hillary is.

It's that the folks at Facebook convinced themselves that they were inadvertently doing mind control, but their first experiment of doing it on purpose failed.

People who are supposed to be really smart. :mrgreen:
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