Yes, It is ALL Fakenews

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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Re: Yes, It is ALL Fakenews

Postby Anaxagoras » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:38 am

Grammatron wrote:
Anaxagoras wrote: :notsure:


You're not sure that this obvious bullshit is bullshit?


I'm skeptical, but who knows?

Would you believe that Trump used to call up reporters pretending to be an employee of himself to gossip about his own love life?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... 4e6f208b14
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Re: Yes, It is ALL Fakenews

Postby corplinx » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:45 am

What part of shitlord do you not get Anax?

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Re: Yes, It is ALL Fakenews

Postby Grammatron » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:47 am

Anaxagoras wrote:
Grammatron wrote:
Anaxagoras wrote: :notsure:


You're not sure that this obvious bullshit is bullshit?


I'm skeptical, but who knows?

Would you believe that Trump used to call up reporters pretending to be an employee of himself to gossip about his own love life?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... 4e6f208b14


I'm skeptical of anything being reported about anyone without evidence.
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Re: Yes, It is ALL Fakenews

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:23 am

There is no "epidemic" of fake news.

What has happened is that the old tricks no longer work, as it might be cavalry charges on entrenched positions in the First World War.

That and the formerly mainstream media have noticed that the mind control isn't working, without realizing that it never worked.

That's what their former "control" of information meant -- That they could kid themselves people were buying it.

That's what the internet killed. Their self deception.
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Re: Yes, It is ALL Fakenews

Postby gnome » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:08 pm

I think that statement is a conflation of two strains, however.

There is what you are mostly referring to, which is "mainstream media" news based on actual research and reports, but spun to a narrative and unreliably screened. That went on all the time as you say.

There is still what started the "fake news" label which are 100% fabricated stories based on zero research, sometimes promoted as "satirical" that are taken as real and spread as propaganda. THAT, I think has indeed exploded in the past few years.
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Re: Yes, It is ALL Fakenews

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:43 pm

Aside from the shell game about being "satirical", that pretty much describes Dan Rather's entire oeuvre.

Stuff he sincerely "knew" was true, but had to manufacture the evidences.

"Pious fraud", if you like that better than "fake".
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Re: Yes, It is ALL Fakenews

Postby gnome » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:06 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:Aside from the shell game about being "satirical", that pretty much describes Dan Rather's entire oeuvre.

Stuff he sincerely "knew" was true, but had to manufacture the evidences.

"Pious fraud", if you like that better than "fake".


You think Dan Rather personally ordered the evidence manufactured about that Bush AWOL thing? By my reckoning he leapt on information that turned out to be false, and failed in his professional duty to question its source and authenticity. He was right to resign for that, but that's still a far cry from making it up in the first place. Even if you want to assign equal moral culpability, it is still different behavior and warrants a different description.

I'm not sure why you want to treat two different phenomenon, with very different behavior involved, as the same thing.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Yes, It is ALL Fakenews

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:33 pm

gnome wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:Aside from the shell game about being "satirical", that pretty much describes Dan Rather's entire oeuvre.

Stuff he sincerely "knew" was true, but had to manufacture the evidences.

"Pious fraud", if you like that better than "fake".


You think Dan Rather personally ordered the evidence manufactured about that Bush AWOL thing? ...


Maybe Dubya really was AWOL, but we will never know for sure.

I think he didn't give a shit, and basically left himself open to "evidences in any form". Which I consider morally to be the same thing.

Way back when, some of his anti-Nixon evidences for things that really happened were fakes. Like that letter ordering the burglary at Ellsberg's shrink's office. The one that said which file drawer to look in and had an official seal and was typed by a secretary.

Same MO all along. "Fake but accurate" (his words not mine).
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Re: Yes, It is ALL Fakenews

Postby gnome » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:32 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
gnome wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:Aside from the shell game about being "satirical", that pretty much describes Dan Rather's entire oeuvre.

Stuff he sincerely "knew" was true, but had to manufacture the evidences.

"Pious fraud", if you like that better than "fake".


You think Dan Rather personally ordered the evidence manufactured about that Bush AWOL thing? ...


Maybe Dubya really was AWOL, but we will never know for sure.

I think he didn't give a shit, and basically left himself open to "evidences in any form". Which I consider morally to be the same thing.

Way back when, some of his anti-Nixon evidences for things that really happened were fakes. Like that letter ordering the burglary at Ellsberg's shrink's office. The one that said which file drawer to look in and had an official seal and was typed by a secretary.

Same MO all along. "Fake but accurate" (his words not mine).


My point is, as I said, even if the moral judgment is the same, "not giving a shit" is different journalistic behavior than fabrication. If you try to understand one behavior by grouping it with the other, you will get inaccurate conclusions.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Yes, It is ALL Fakenews

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:36 pm

His after the fact apologetics ("fake but accurate"), belie that benefit of the doubt.
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Re: Yes, It is ALL Fakenews

Postby RCC: Act II » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:42 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:His after the fact apologetics ("fake but accurate"), belie that benefit of the doubt.


It is a case of giving too much of a shit. The important thing is that CBS flushed him, which is what legitimate news organizations do when someone goes this far out of line.

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Re: Yes, It is ALL Fakenews

Postby gnome » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:49 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:His after the fact apologetics ("fake but accurate"), belie that benefit of the doubt.


I'm not asking for him to receive any benefit. For the third time, I am not making a moral comparison.

Are we trying to decide who is worse, or are we describing the behavior of information sources? Pick one.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Yes, It is ALL Fakenews

Postby ed » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:22 pm

WildCat wrote:Michael Wolff's new book is getting a lot of press today, not just for the explosive allegations in it about Trump but because Trump is threatening to sue to stop it (good luck!).

But there's actually a disclaimer in it admitting much of it is bullshit:
Michael Wolff wrote:Many of the accounts of what has happened in the Trump White House are in conflict with one another; many, in Trumpian fashion, are baldly untrue. Those conflicts, and that looseness with the truth, if not with reality itself, are an elemental thread of the book. Sometimes I have let the players offer their versions, in turn allowing the reader to judge them. In other instances I have, through a consistency in accounts and through sources I have come to trust, settled on a version of events I believe to be true.

If that doesn't sum up the era we're living in I don't know what does!


Edited for clarity:
Many of the accounts of what has happened in the Trump White House are baldly untrue. Those conflicts, and that looseness with the truth, if not with reality itself, are an elemental thread of the book.
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Re: Yes, It is ALL Fakenews

Postby ed » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:30 pm

gnome wrote:
You think Dan Rather personally ordered the evidence manufactured about that Bush AWOL thing? By my reckoning he leapt on information that turned out to be false, and failed in his professional duty to question its source and authenticity. He was right to resign for that, but that's still a far cry from making it up in the first place. Even if you want to assign equal moral culpability, it is still different behavior and warrants a different description.

I'm not sure why you want to treat two different phenomenon, with very different behavior involved, as the same thing.


I don't see then as different. There is commission in both cases: one is the creation of a falsehood, the other is the selection of a falsehood. To differentiate is just semantics.
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Re: Yes, It is ALL Fakenews

Postby gnome » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:07 pm

How the media selects stories and reports is a far more complicated phenomenon than some clickbait generating bullshit artist. If you study it as if it were all like the latter you are going to be terribly uninformed.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Yes, It is ALL Fakenews

Postby RCC: Act II » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:08 pm

ed wrote:
WildCat wrote:Michael Wolff's new book is getting a lot of press today, not just for the explosive allegations in it about Trump but because Trump is threatening to sue to stop it (good luck!).

But there's actually a disclaimer in it admitting much of it is bullshit:
Michael Wolff wrote:Many of the accounts of what has happened in the Trump White House are in conflict with one another; many, in Trumpian fashion, are baldly untrue. Those conflicts, and that looseness with the truth, if not with reality itself, are an elemental thread of the book. Sometimes I have let the players offer their versions, in turn allowing the reader to judge them. In other instances I have, through a consistency in accounts and through sources I have come to trust, settled on a version of events I believe to be true.

If that doesn't sum up the era we're living in I don't know what does!


Edited for clarity:
Many of the accounts of what has happened in the Trump White House are baldly untrue. Those conflicts, and that looseness with the truth, if not with reality itself, are an elemental thread of the book.


That isn't clarity. Clarity is more like:
Almost all of the people I've talked to are full of crap. Sometimes I just present the crap and let you figure it out and sometimes I try to figure out what actually happened.


If he makes clear when he is doing which, this is fair enough and a reasonable disclaimer. If he's going to just go back and forth with no warning of whether he is reporting or surmising, then this is a sign the whole book is garbage.

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Re: Yes, It is ALL Fakenews

Postby corplinx » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:56 pm

Steve Bannon Shadow President was a serious story even though he was apparently a token for the Mercer money.

And they all knew it.

It's a lie of omission to not mention the bogus story yourself when it's the "narrative of the week" for the sake of calling BS on it. So just because they chose not to run the narrative doesn't mean they are guiltless.

So yes, It's all Fakenews.

It's Fake until Proven Correct. There is no assumption of credibility anywhere in the news-sphere except for maybe The Intercept for me now. They are leftists, they admit it, they admit their skew, but when they aren't spouting opinion at least they have a real goddamn source.

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Re: Yes, It is ALL Fakenews

Postby Grammatron » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:32 pm

gnome wrote:How the media selects stories and reports is a far more complicated phenomenon than some clickbait generating bullshit artist. If you study it as if it were all like the latter you are going to be terribly uninformed.


Here's an interesting experiment for you: when you have times, try going back over a period of a year, look at ll the major headlines and news from your favorite/trusted publications. Then compare it to the reality of today.

There's a second part to this, but it's premature to ask until you entertain the notion of doing the first part.
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Re: Yes, It is ALL Fakenews

Postby gnome » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:08 pm

I can see how that might be a relevant exercise. In fact I already have some thoughts as to how I might perceive the results.
Is it better if I actually do the comparison before I find out about the second part?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Yes, It is ALL Fakenews

Postby Grammatron » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:22 pm

gnome wrote:I can see how that might be a relevant exercise. In fact I already have some thoughts as to how I might perceive the results.
Is it better if I actually do the comparison before I find out about the second part?


The second part is a bit of an inverse: look at the headlines and news from your least trusted publication/source for the first year of Obama's administration, then compare it to the reality of a year later.

I think you will find that in both cases with these publications/sources, catering to their audience, they published whatever people believed.
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