Bail Reform in NYS

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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RCC: Act II
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Re: Bail Reform in NYS

Post by RCC: Act II » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:34 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
gnome wrote:As Rob pointed out, if it's true it's a broken part that's not within this proposal.
If it's true, it's a broken part that makes this proposal an exercise in futility.

BTW, the consequences for skipping court are an open warrant that will bite you next time you're stopped for having a perpetrator face. Well not you, but you know what I mean.

No that's not efficient law enforcement, but it's something other than nothing.
They are generally a bit more hard core about those that are an active significant danger.

But yeah, skipping bail just means you don't want to pop up on the grid, but that means living your life knowing that a traffic stop or anything else that gets the attention of law enforcement means sitting in jail waiting for a hearing and then probably until the charge is resolved. Plus, it will be used at sentencing and any time in the future if you get arrested. (ETA: can sometimes be admissible at trial as an indicator of guilt)

We are also talking non-violent people, so their being on the run and not popping up on the grid is basically the requirements of probation anyway, so it isn't that big of a deal.

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Re: Bail Reform in NYS

Post by gnome » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:56 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
gnome wrote:As Rob pointed out, if it's true it's a broken part that's not within this proposal.
If it's true, it's a broken part that makes this proposal an exercise in futility.
I disagree. You take a broken system and change something so that fewer people are unjustly screwed, even if it's just as broken, that's still fewer people screwed. Net gain. Now, if in trying to do so you made it WORSE than the current system, then you have an argument.
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Re: Bail Reform in NYS

Post by RCC: Act II » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:30 pm

The brokenness is bringing money into it in the first place. Either a person should be loose or shouldn't be.

It was really, really, really total bullshit back in the day when time spent in pretrial detention wasn't required to be granted as time served. Now it is just really, really bullshit.

The historical legal development of the concept of bail is bizarre nonsense that maybe made sense far in the past.

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Re: Bail Reform in NYS

Post by WildCat » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:08 pm

ed wrote:
WildCat wrote:
ed wrote:Misdemeanors and non-violent felonies are what they are talking about. I think the miscreant you reference, Wildcat, would not be eligible.

I agree with this in principle but it has to be implemented appropriately. In the world of Ed the above guy would be rotting. He might even have met with an unfortunate accident.
When a robbery with a firearm is charged as "possession of lost or mislaid property" and "illegal firearm possession" then it's magically not a violent crime any more. And there's lots of pressure to do this, so politicians can claim "violent crime is down".
Can you give me a reference? I don't doubt you in the least, this is the sort of stuff that I simply like to know to shut snowflakes up.
http://www.cwbchicago.com/2014/02/updat ... ports.html
Stories of Chicago Police Department manipulation of crime statistics by downgrading serious offenses to lesser matters are fairly common. In our experience, though, police reports of suspected "downgrade" cases omit key information that could suggest a higher classification is appropriate.

For example, we are aware of several cases in which a victim was punched, pushed, or grabbed from behind—qualifying as a robbery—but the incidents were classified as "theft" with details of physical altercation being omitted from police reports.

The January 25 case of a man who reported being robbed outside of Trace Lounge in Wrigleyville is a bit different.

In the official police records, this man's tale--which was initially classified as an aggravated battery--has been reduced to a curious case of "pocket-picking."

According to the police report, the intoxicated victim
was outside of [Trace] bar to take smoke and there were a group of 5 people standing outside. They started to talk to him, then proceeded to grab at his pants pockets taking his wallet, keys and cellphone. [One offender] took everything out of the wallet, threw the wallet to the ground and started running to [a vehicle] which fled northbound on Clark St.
In Illinois, robbery requires the offender(s) to use force or threaten the imminent use of force to take property. Even though the man was outnumbered 5-to-1, the department apparently couldn't find a "threat" element here. One is left to wonder how a group of five people rifling through the pants pockets of a conscious person and taking his valuables qualifies as "pocket-picking."
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Re: Bail Reform in NYS

Post by WildCat » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:12 pm

Lies, damned lies, and statistics...
Rejecting valid reports is just one way that the city continues to drive down the number of crime reports in Chicago. Chicago magazine published an award-winning two-part series on the topic last year. And we've come across innumerable examples on our own:

When police manpower is slashed nearly 30%, citizens are required to file many types of crime reports over the phone—if they can endure the sometimes-lengthy hold times.

Citizen directed to file police reports online recently found the task to be impossible. As we were first to report, the police department's website was rejecting every submission because it didn't recognize any address—even Chicago police headquarters—as being within the city limits. The department fixed the issue after mainstream media inquiries were made.

Another favorite "crime-cutting" technique is downgrading serious crimes such as burglary and robbery to lesser categories such as "theft from building" and "theft from person."

Last year, police infamously categorized a reader's phone theft as non-criminal "lost and found."

And a man in Wrigleyville who found himself surrounded by five offenders who then took his keys, wallet, and other valuables from his pants was not robbed. He was "pick pocketed."

In February, we found that the city was failing to include all crimes in it's highly-touted data portal, a web site that is used by major media outlets to generate statistics for their reporting.

Among the cases that was not listed? The robbery of Rahm Emanuel's own son.
http://www.cwbchicago.com/2015/10/retur ... tment.html
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Re: Bail Reform in NYS

Post by Mentat » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:16 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:The brokenness is bringing money into it in the first place. Either a person should be loose or shouldn't be.

It was really, really, really total bullshit back in the day when time spent in pretrial detention wasn't required to be granted as time served. Now it is just really, really bullshit.

The historical legal development of the concept of bail is bizarre nonsense that maybe made sense far in the past.
I'd say bail is fine for white collar crime and fraud. But otherwise I agree.
It's "pea-can", man.

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Re: Bail Reform in NYS

Post by WildCat » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:17 pm

Of all index crimes, motor vehicle thefts have plunged most. Over the past three calendar years, they’re down 35 percent, again according to the department’s own statistics. (They fell 23 percent last year alone.) Over that same three-year period, burglaries fell 33 percent; aggravated batteries, 20 percent; robberies, 16 percent.

Current and former officers and several criminologists say they can’t understand how a cash-strapped and undermanned department—one that by its own admission has been focusing most of its attention and resources on combating shootings and murders and protecting schoolchildren in a few very violent neighborhoods—could achieve such astounding results. “God Almighty! It’s just not possible,” opines a retired high-ranking officer who reviewed the department’s statistics.

To get to the bottom of the numbers, Chicago studied police reports and court documents, examined the department’s internal and publicly available crime data, and interviewed more than 70 crime victims, neighborhood activists, criminologists, and former and current police sources. (Officers agreed to speak only if their names were withheld, some citing fears of retaliation.) We also reviewed a recently released audit by the city’s office of the inspector general that found the police department failed to report nearly a quarter of aggravated assaults and aggravated batteries in 2012, based on the cases surveyed.

Together, this information shows what Smith, Gottesman, and countless Chicagoans have been saying all along: The city’s crime numbers seem too good to be true. One former lieutenant has a name for the system: the washing machine. “They wash and rinse the numbers,” the lieutenant says.

Documents and interviews reveal how this may be happening. First, on McCarthy’s watch, the department quietly changed several bedrock crime reporting and scoring policies. For example, in the statistics it compiles and shares with the public on its website each week, it stopped including certain crimes that had been counted in the past.

Second, many police sources say they have been pressured by superiors—explicitly and implicitly—to underreport crime. There are, according to an expert source on the department’s statistics, potentially “a million tiny ways to do it”—including misclassifying and downgrading offenses, counting multiple incidents as single events, and making it more difficult for people to report crimes or actively discouraging them from doing so.

Finally, some of the drop is simply a byproduct of reduced manpower. Many officers say that their ranks have become so depleted that they can’t respond to all 911 calls. It’s like the proverbial tree falling in the empty forest: no victim, no report, no crime.
http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magaz ... tatistics/
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Re: Bail Reform in NYS

Post by Nyarlathotep » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:29 pm

The Chicago Police fudge statistics.

Ergo, even the most minor of crimes should be treated like Murder. Jaywalking, Littering and Tearing the tags off your pillow? That's three consecutive life sentences for you,pal. Otherwise, justice will never get done.
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Re: Bail Reform in NYS

Post by WildCat » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:30 pm

Nyarlathotep wrote:The Chicago Police fudge statistics.

Ergo, even the most minor of crimes should be treated like Murder. Jaywalking, Littering and Tearing the tags off your pillow? That's three consecutive life sentences for you,pal. Otherwise, justice will never get done.
Yeah, that follows logically from what I said. In some alternate, bizarro universe.
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Re: Bail Reform in NYS

Post by Nyarlathotep » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:36 pm

If that isn't what you are saying then what are you saying? Because from here you are saying that bail for non-violent offenders should be the same as for violent offenders because the cops fudge violent crimes into non-violent ones on the books. If that's true, then the punishments should be the same too, for the same reason
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Re: Bail Reform in NYS

Post by RCC: Act II » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:05 pm

The cops do the exact opposite of under-reporting here. The idea of cops stacking charges is almost a cliche in most places. However, they don't do this in Chicago so we need to deny non-violent offenders bail because the remedy to a bad police policy is a bad bail policy.

lol

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Re: Bail Reform in NYS

Post by WildCat » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:04 am

Free On "Affordable Bail" For Robbery, Man's Accused Of Robbery Again
An accused robbery offender, released in December on an “affordable bail,” is back behind bars today—accused of committing another robbery that’s exactly like the other.

Hayes White, 24, was arrested Sunday evening for battering two security guards as he tried to steal $265 worth of merchandise from a West Loop Jewel-Osco store in the 1300 block of South Canal.

Police said White punched and scratched one security guard while pushing another into a wall and ripping his clothes when they tried to stop him from walking out around 9 p.m.

Prosecutors charged White with felony robbery and felony aggravated battery of a merchant. Judge David Navarro ordered him held on a $10,000 deposit bond.

Incredibly, at the time of the latest alleged robbery, White was free on bond awaiting trial for allegedly robbing and battering merchants in a nearly identical crime at a Near South Side Jewel-Osco store last November.

On November 6, White punched a security guard in the face when the agent tried to stop him from stealing $140 worth of merchandise from the Jewel store at 1240 South Wabash, prosecutors said.

White was charged with felony robbery and felony aggravated battery of a merchant in that case, too.

Judge Sophia Atcherson set bail at just $2,000, meaning that White posted only $200 before going free without electronic monitoring. Atcherson did order White to observe a 7 p.m. to 7 a.m. curfew, which he also violated to pull off his latest alleged crime.

What’s more, court records show that White is currently on probation for shoplifting, a sentence he received in November 2016 after pleading guilty to stealing $258 worth of merchandise from a Grand Boulevard-area Walmart store.

Since January 2016, White has been arrested at least 14 times for shoplifting in Chicago.
Maybe the next time he'll kill the security guard. But the imnportant thing is this sweet, innocent young man about to turn his life around gets affordable bail for his nonvio..... errrr, ummmm... he's just misunderstood that's all.
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Re: Bail Reform in NYS

Post by WildCat » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:07 am

RCC: Act II wrote:The cops do the exact opposite of under-reporting here. The idea of cops stacking charges is almost a cliche in most places. However, they don't do this in Chicago so we need to deny non-violent offenders bail because the remedy to a bad police policy is a bad bail policy.

lol
Cops charge people where you live? What country is that?
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Re: Bail Reform in NYS

Post by RCC: Act II » Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:37 pm

WildCat wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote:The cops do the exact opposite of under-reporting here. The idea of cops stacking charges is almost a cliche in most places. However, they don't do this in Chicago so we need to deny non-violent offenders bail because the remedy to a bad police policy is a bad bail policy.

lol
Cops charge people where you live? What country is that?
This one. At least in this state. (looks at file) Yeah, the criminal complaint that lists the charges that are the subject of initial bail status are with rare exception written and sworn to by the arresting officer. The judicial officer then reviews it for probable cause and sets bail.

Maybe in other places charges have to be approved by a prosecutor. I don't know.