The Government Shutdown

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WildCat
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Re: The Government Shutdown

Postby WildCat » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:00 pm

gnome wrote:Is a compromise measure on DACA (which relates to people who were brought over as minors, not of their own initiative) tantamount to an "Open Borders" policy? Last I heard there was significant majority popular support--there's no way all of them are "open border" Democrats.

Trump offered Obama's 800,000 dreamers green cards and a path to citizenship along with an extra 1 million illegal immigrants, and asked for border security in return. The Democrats rejected this because they are the party of open borders and reject any and all enforcement of immigration laws. That was a compromise measure.

If you think there's another explanation why they rejected Trump's offer then feel free to mention it.
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Re: The Government Shutdown

Postby gnome » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:06 pm

He's not being rejected for asking for "Border Security" generically. He asked for funds for a border security solution prioritizing a vanity project that isn't what even the border security agencies are asking for. If I'm not mistaken they would rather the bulk came in the form of more agents, more surveillance, better equipment, and some improvement of physical barriers but nothing close to the level of Trumps massive border wall initiative.

Scale down the "Big Wall" idea and then come to me if the Democrats are dragging their heels. You don't have to be for "open borders" to be against that part of it.
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Re: The Government Shutdown

Postby Grammatron » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:07 pm

gnome wrote:He's not being rejected for asking for "Border Security" generically. He asked for funds for a border security solution prioritizing a vanity project that isn't what even the border security agencies are asking for. If I'm not mistaken they would rather the bulk came in the form of more agents, more surveillance, better equipment, and some improvement of physical barriers but nothing close to the level of Trumps massive border wall initiative.

Scale down the "Big Wall" idea and then come to me if the Democrats are dragging their heels. You don't have to be for "open borders" to be against that part of it.


Scale down to what?
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Re: The Government Shutdown

Postby WildCat » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:38 pm

gnome wrote:He's not being rejected for asking for "Border Security" generically. He asked for funds for a border security solution prioritizing a vanity project that isn't what even the border security agencies are asking for. If I'm not mistaken they would rather the bulk came in the form of more agents, more surveillance, better equipment, and some improvement of physical barriers but nothing close to the level of Trumps massive border wall initiative.

Scale down the "Big Wall" idea and then come to me if the Democrats are dragging their heels. You don't have to be for "open borders" to be against that part of it.

They've spent billions on electronic gizmos over the years and it's done squat. Despite popular opinion walls do actually work, cross-border terror attacks on Israel went from 10,000 a year to less than 100 after they built their wall. And the wall was already scaled back, it wouldn't be continuous from the Pacific to the Gulf.

And the fact remains Democrats are opposed to any and all immigration law enforcement, as has been mentioned several times now in this thread they've even made it a criminal offense in California for an employer to cooperate with ICE agents. Don you have any evidence at all that Democrats would agree to real border security and real enforcement of immigration laws?
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Re: The Government Shutdown

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:46 pm

gnome wrote:Is a compromise measure on DACA (which relates to people who were brought over as minors, not of their own initiative) tantamount to an "Open Borders" policy? Last I heard there was significant majority popular support--there's no way all of them are "open border" Democrats.


The argument goes something like this.

1) Thin edge of the wedge.
2) That's what Reagan did and look what happened.

If you're pro-open-borders on Libertarian lines then it isn't much of an argument (and both parties suck).

But it's not a bad argument against what the Democrats are trying to pull, which strictly speaking isn't "open borders" though it look a lot like it in many ways.
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Re: The Government Shutdown

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:49 pm

WildCat wrote: And the fact remains Democrats are opposed to any and all immigration law enforcement ...


This is the important point.

The tactic is not to change the law in some fashion (and having to justify the changes), it's non-enforcement of existing law.
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Re: The Government Shutdown

Postby gnome » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:19 am

I would be happy to see Democrats change their policy or behavior on this.

I am not interested in them heeding proposals from candidates that play on "those scary foreigners" to gain power or argue reform.
Republicans had a chance to claim some high ground and they flubbed it.
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Re: The Government Shutdown

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:38 am

Pre-Trump, Democrats and big business Republicans alike had a de facto policy of keep 'em here but but keep 'em illegal. I'm sure I said that here many times back then.

If it were really "open borders" Libertarian style, mass immigration would still pull down wages, but it would remove the unfair advantage of hiring illegals. No one in a position of power will ever seriously propose that.

Meanwhile on the left ...

Dems left Dreamers out to dry, say activists
The Hill

Immigration activists are furious that 73 House Democrats, including seven members of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus, voted for a bipartisan spending bill that doesn't include a DACA fix.

The early-morning House vote ended a brief government shutdown precipitated by Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.), and in the process passed a two-year spending proposal that included a bevy of Democratic priorities, but not immigration.

“Last night immigrant young people and people of conscience fighting for justice were betrayed by both parties,” said Greisa Martínez Rosas, a DACA recipient and advocacy director for United We Dream, an immigrant youth activism network.

...
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