Immigration and the nature of our society

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
User avatar
Mentat
Posts: 10072
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:00 pm
Location: Hangar 18
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 104 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Mentat » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:27 pm

Giz wrote:
Mentat wrote:
Giz wrote:Employing illegals is (theoretically) prohibited. So it's not like "knowing someone smokes drugs", it's like "buying/selling drugs from someone"


Again, why illegal? Employment isn't harming anybody.


So we are back to questioning if nations have the right to enforce border controls?


A lot of evils can and have been perpetuated in the name of right of the state to enforce the law. They have that right, but not at the expense of infringing on human rights or the rights of its citizens.
It's "pea-can", man.

Lapis Sells . . . But Who's Buying?

User avatar
Mentat
Posts: 10072
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:00 pm
Location: Hangar 18
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 104 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Mentat » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:31 pm

ed wrote:I like to understand underlying principles.

Is the principle that anyone can enter the country and be employed? In other words, one does not need a passport or visa to enter.

This then leaves open and ignores
1. any questionable background of the people coming in
2. any impact on social service costs
3. any impact on the employment of citizens, particularly in the massively vulnerable black male 18-25 demo'
4. any impact on crime

That sum it up?

May I ask what the difference is between being a USA citizen and jumping the border?


You are confusing citizenship with being in the country. I am for opening up the borders and respecting the rights of those in the country, as well as those citizens around them. That is not the same thing as conferring all of the privileges as citizenship, like the right to vote, access to non-emergency social services, or those with criminal backgrounds are permitted.

The mixing up of those two concepts is either due to willful ignorance, or intentional dishonesty.
It's "pea-can", man.

Lapis Sells . . . But Who's Buying?

User avatar
Giz
Posts: 416
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:07 pm
Location: UK
Has thanked: 37 times
Been thanked: 62 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Giz » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:39 pm

Mentat wrote:
ed wrote:I like to understand underlying principles.

Is the principle that anyone can enter the country and be employed? In other words, one does not need a passport or visa to enter.

This then leaves open and ignores
1. any questionable background of the people coming in
2. any impact on social service costs
3. any impact on the employment of citizens, particularly in the massively vulnerable black male 18-25 demo'
4. any impact on crime

That sum it up?

May I ask what the difference is between being a USA citizen and jumping the border?


You are confusing citizenship with being in the country. I am for opening up the borders and respecting the rights of those in the country, as well as those citizens around them. That is not the same thing as conferring all of the privileges as citizenship, like the right to vote, access to non-emergency social services, or those with criminal backgrounds are permitted.

The mixing up of those two concepts is either due to willful ignorance, or intentional dishonesty.


So, unlimited green cards rather than unlimited citizenship?

User avatar
Mentat
Posts: 10072
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:00 pm
Location: Hangar 18
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 104 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Mentat » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:44 pm

Giz wrote:
Mentat wrote:
ed wrote:I like to understand underlying principles.

Is the principle that anyone can enter the country and be employed? In other words, one does not need a passport or visa to enter.

This then leaves open and ignores
1. any questionable background of the people coming in
2. any impact on social service costs
3. any impact on the employment of citizens, particularly in the massively vulnerable black male 18-25 demo'
4. any impact on crime

That sum it up?

May I ask what the difference is between being a USA citizen and jumping the border?


You are confusing citizenship with being in the country. I am for opening up the borders and respecting the rights of those in the country, as well as those citizens around them. That is not the same thing as conferring all of the privileges as citizenship, like the right to vote, access to non-emergency social services, or those with criminal backgrounds are permitted.

The mixing up of those two concepts is either due to willful ignorance, or intentional dishonesty.


So, unlimited green cards rather than unlimited citizenship?


Kinda. I mean, it would be capped out as a certain percentage of the current US population. Obviously moving tens of millions of people in a very short period could be extremely destabilizing, so it would be something you gradually increased over time.

Second, I'm not saying you can't keep out those with criminal backgrounds, or with ties to gangs or terrorist cells.
It's "pea-can", man.

Lapis Sells . . . But Who's Buying?

User avatar
Giz
Posts: 416
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:07 pm
Location: UK
Has thanked: 37 times
Been thanked: 62 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Giz » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:54 pm

Mentat wrote:
Giz wrote:
Mentat wrote:
ed wrote:I like to understand underlying principles.

Is the principle that anyone can enter the country and be employed? In other words, one does not need a passport or visa to enter.

This then leaves open and ignores
1. any questionable background of the people coming in
2. any impact on social service costs
3. any impact on the employment of citizens, particularly in the massively vulnerable black male 18-25 demo'
4. any impact on crime

That sum it up?

May I ask what the difference is between being a USA citizen and jumping the border?


You are confusing citizenship with being in the country. I am for opening up the borders and respecting the rights of those in the country, as well as those citizens around them. That is not the same thing as conferring all of the privileges as citizenship, like the right to vote, access to non-emergency social services, or those with criminal backgrounds are permitted.

The mixing up of those two concepts is either due to willful ignorance, or intentional dishonesty.


So, unlimited green cards rather than unlimited citizenship?


Kinda. I mean, it would be capped out as a certain percentage of the current US population. Obviously moving tens of millions of people in a very short period could be extremely destabilizing, so it would be something you gradually increased over time.

Second, I'm not saying you can't keep out those with criminal backgrounds, or with ties to gangs or terrorist cells.


A) I don't think it would be just tens of millions. Given the population of the third world, we would be talking about hundreds of millions.

B) a lot of than just "emergency medical services" would have to be provided. (Food vouchers, schooling for children inc. Translators , etc)

Given the above, are you really arguing for "open borders", or just that our current quotas are too low?

User avatar
Mentat
Posts: 10072
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:00 pm
Location: Hangar 18
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 104 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Mentat » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:00 pm

A mix. More like open borders with certain conditions. The ability to speak fluent English, the ability to hold a job, to follow the law, to respect cultural norms, to afford travel to and from the country, and to afford living costs for the first six months while they search for employment. If those conditions are met before or during their stay, they are no longer permitted to stay.
It's "pea-can", man.

Lapis Sells . . . But Who's Buying?

User avatar
ed
Posts: 31220
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:52 pm
Title: Rhino of the Florida swamps
Has thanked: 366 times
Been thanked: 603 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby ed » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:48 pm

Why would i agree to that? Whats in it for me?
- new minimalist ethos -

RCC: Act II
Posts: 538
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:56 am
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 51 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby RCC: Act II » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:56 pm

ed wrote:I like to understand underlying principles.

Is the principle that anyone can enter the country and be employed? In other words, one does not need a passport or visa to enter.


I think opinions differ. I don't know if anyone is in favor of totally uncontrolled immigration. I'm mostly fine with the general status quo with a number of tweaks loosening everything up.

My main problem is being retroactively nitty about it and using "the law is the law" reasoning to deport people who have been here for years. If some person gets into the country and manages to build a life, I'm good with the show of initiative and think the nature of entry (or of overstaying a visa) is feh. $100 fine and here's a green card and an application for citizenship.

Taking their kids and sending them to countries they left as small children goes beyond callous formalism into plain evil.

User avatar
Giz
Posts: 416
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:07 pm
Location: UK
Has thanked: 37 times
Been thanked: 62 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Giz » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:01 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
ed wrote:I like to understand underlying principles.

Is the principle that anyone can enter the country and be employed? In other words, one does not need a passport or visa to enter.


I think opinions differ. I don't know if anyone is in favor of totally uncontrolled immigration. I'm mostly fine with the general status quo with a number of tweaks loosening everything up.

My main problem is being retroactively nitty about it and using "the law is the law" reasoning to deport people who have been here for years. If some person gets into the country and manages to build a life, I'm good with the show of initiative and think the nature of entry (or of overstaying a visa) is feh. $100 fine and here's a green card and an application for citizenship.

Taking their kids and sending them to countries they left as small children goes beyond callous formalism into plain evil.


Jeez, I spent thousands on both green card and then citizenship. Can we at least ask this hypothetical undocumented guy (who has shown initiative and built a productive life) to pay at least as much. ... say 4000 dollars?

RCC: Act II
Posts: 538
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:56 am
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 51 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby RCC: Act II » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:02 pm

ed wrote:Why would i agree to that? Whats in it for me?


You want to be sent a check?

The country will be better off because of an influx of people who are looking to improve their lives and contribute to the economy.

Other than that, not much.

User avatar
Grammatron
Posts: 31796
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:21 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 1350 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Grammatron » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:04 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:I think opinions differ. I don't know if anyone is in favor of totally uncontrolled immigration. I'm mostly fine with the general status quo with a number of tweaks loosening everything up.

This is why this conversation can't happen reasonably. California is in favor of uncontrolled immigration. They pass laws that make it impossible to control it and punish those who try.
My main problem is being retroactively nitty about it and using "the law is the law" reasoning to deport people who have been here for years. If some person gets into the country and manages to build a life, I'm good with the show of initiative and think the nature of entry (or of overstaying a visa) is feh. $100 fine and here's a green card and an application for citizenship.

This is exactly the same conversation that happened in 80's. The result was this good will gesture of amnesty to be followed by strong control of immigration. That never happened; that will never happen in a state like California without serious Federal push.
Taking their kids and sending them to countries they left as small children goes beyond callous formalism into plain evil.

There will ALWAYS be kids who have to be sent to countries they left.
pillory wrote:jokes aren't funny....seriously thinking......

seriously thinking might be funny....but it's not joke

RCC: Act II
Posts: 538
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:56 am
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 51 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby RCC: Act II » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:04 pm

Giz wrote:
Jeez, I spent thousands on both green card and then citizenship. Can we at least ask this hypothetical undocumented guy (who has shown initiative and built a productive life) to pay at least as much. ... say 4000 dollars?


Ok. Fine him the costs he would have paid. Whatever.

User avatar
ed
Posts: 31220
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:52 pm
Title: Rhino of the Florida swamps
Has thanked: 366 times
Been thanked: 603 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby ed » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:37 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
ed wrote:Why would i agree to that? Whats in it for me?


You want to be sent a check?

The country will be better off because of an influx of people who are looking to improve their lives and contribute to the economy.

Other than that, not much.

Proof?
- new minimalist ethos -

User avatar
Giz
Posts: 416
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:07 pm
Location: UK
Has thanked: 37 times
Been thanked: 62 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Giz » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:03 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
Giz wrote:
Jeez, I spent thousands on both green card and then citizenship. Can we at least ask this hypothetical undocumented guy (who has shown initiative and built a productive life) to pay at least as much. ... say 4000 dollars?


Ok. Fine him the costs he would have paid. Whatever.


And if not, deport him?

(And it's not really a "whatever", we really don't want to order society so that you are officially better off if you flout the law)

User avatar
Mentat
Posts: 10072
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:00 pm
Location: Hangar 18
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 104 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Mentat » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:12 pm

Something like that would be the logical step. 4000 might be steep up front, but you could ease it in some way. There is an economic value to being legalized after all.
It's "pea-can", man.

Lapis Sells . . . But Who's Buying?

User avatar
ed
Posts: 31220
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:52 pm
Title: Rhino of the Florida swamps
Has thanked: 366 times
Been thanked: 603 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby ed » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:16 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
ed wrote:I like to understand underlying principles.

Is the principle that anyone can enter the country and be employed? In other words, one does not need a passport or visa to enter.


I think opinions differ. I don't know if anyone is in favor of totally uncontrolled immigration. I'm mostly fine with the general status quo with a number of tweaks loosening everything up.

My main problem is being retroactively nitty about it and using "the law is the law" reasoning to deport people who have been here for years. If some person gets into the country and manages to build a life, I'm good with the show of initiative and think the nature of entry (or of overstaying a visa) is feh. $100 fine and here's a green card and an application for citizenship.

Taking their kids and sending them to countries they left as small children goes beyond callous formalism into plain evil.


No problem figuring oiut a solution for them. I have a big problem not developing a sensible policy. Been there and i won't be fooled again.
A merit basedsystem with an objective of assimilatin is going to be the way to go, imo
- new minimalist ethos -

User avatar
WildCat
Posts: 12807
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:53 am
Location: The 33rd Ward, Chicago
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 222 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby WildCat » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:28 am

RCC: Act II wrote:
WildCat wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote:Why non-starters? Cheap labor helps economic expansion.

And now we have RCC arguing against fair wages and for exploitation of labor.

I swear Trump has made "progressives" batshit insane.


That I state a fact, that cheap labor helps economic expansion, is not advocating anything. Just stating a fact.

The fact is higher wages result in more economic expansion than lower wages do.

Show me a country with low wages and I'll show you a shithole country.

What's the average wage in Haiti?
Last edited by WildCat on Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

User avatar
Nyarlathotep
Posts: 46697
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:50 pm
Has thanked: 713 times
Been thanked: 1205 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Postby Nyarlathotep » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:01 am

The fucked up thing about this whole mess is that even though it is supposed to be all about illegal immigration, the backlash is hitting legal immigrants and people who aren't immigrants at all but look like they could be. An example of the latter is one of my nieces being recently told to "Go back to Mexico" by some racist fuckwad despite the fact I can guaran-fucking-tee that side of my family has been in the country longer than the racist fuckwads family. But that isnt the worst of it.

On a more practical level, Nevada has some of the lowest ratios of doctors per capita in the nation. Possibly THE lowest, depending who you ask. Lots of reasons for that, not the least of which is that if you stand to make six digits a year, you probably don't want to live in a little one stop light town in the desert, and that describes 95% of the state. There are parts of the state where if you get seriously hurt, you better hope someone nearby knows first aid and your EMTs are good, because you are in for a three hour+ ambulance ride to the hospital. Even my mom is at least an hour from the nearest doctor. It's bad here. There WAS a program started to bring in more doctors by granting foreign med school residents Visas if they practiced in some of our underserved areas.

Was.

But thanks to the backlash against immigration in general, that program is stopped. Suspended until 'clarification' is granted on certain issues. Which in turn means many of my fellow Nevadans still get to enjoy a three hour tour of the desert if they break their leg. And I get to keep working on my mom to move into Carson with me because I don't feel comfortable with her being so far from medical care if she gets hurt or sick. Huzzah. Yay us.
Universal Law is for lackeys, context is for kings


Return to “Politics & Social Issues”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CCBot [Bot] and 1 guest