Immigration and the nature of our society

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
User avatar
gnome
Posts: 22065
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 360 times
Been thanked: 389 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by gnome » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:03 pm

I think that's not a clear cut question. It could be argued that maintaining the status quo requires effort just like directing change in a deliberate direction does.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
Witness
Posts: 16448
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:50 pm
Has thanked: 1993 times
Been thanked: 2727 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by Witness » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:15 am

WildCat wrote:Would you rather they move the French airport to Poland?
Neither am I French nor do I live in France. :BigGrin3:

User avatar
WildCat
Posts: 13842
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:53 am
Location: The 33rd Ward, Chicago
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 330 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by WildCat » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:37 am

Witness wrote:
WildCat wrote:Would you rather they move the French airport to Poland?
Neither am I French nor do I live in France. :BigGrin3:
Would you rather move the _______________ airport to Poland?
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 70796
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 3171 times
Been thanked: 1171 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:21 pm

Witness wrote:
WildCat wrote:Would you rather they move the French airport to Poland?
Neither am I French nor do I live in France. :BigGrin3:[ /sorry]
Me neither.

Let's move the French airport to Bosnia! :coolspecs:
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box.
-- our mission statement plappendale

User avatar
Witness
Posts: 16448
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:50 pm
Has thanked: 1993 times
Been thanked: 2727 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by Witness » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:14 pm

↑ In fact I just wanted to call attention to temporary immigration or seasonal workers (e. g. lots of Italians in Switzerland during the fifties; today all the people who cross the border just to go to work; many Moroccans work in Spain for the crops [some have even settled in small remote villages who were dying out – which seems to please everybody –, but that's of course not temporary]).

Something analogous in the US?

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 70796
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 3171 times
Been thanked: 1171 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:19 pm

Witness wrote:↑ In fact I just wanted to call attention to temporary immigration or seasonal workers (e. g. lots of Italians in Switzerland during the fifties; today all the people who cross the border just to go to work; many Moroccans work in Spain for the crops [some have even settled in small remote villages who were dying out – which seems to please everybody –, but that's of course not temporary]).

Something analogous in the US?
There was a deal like that with Mexico at one time, but it's really not the same what with over 3000 km of unfortified border and territorial annexations that mostly respected private property.
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box.
-- our mission statement plappendale

User avatar
RCC: Act II
Posts: 837
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:56 am
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 87 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by RCC: Act II » Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:03 pm

Short version:

The question of whether diversity is a good thing sounds innocuous.

That is, until you think about the kind of isolationist ethnic nationalism that would be required to stop it, and how that has historically worked out.

It is worse in the US because we are already way to diverse to form any coherent sense of ethnicity. It is telling that the idea of a dominant ethnic group has expanded from anglo-saxon protestants to pretty much all European ancestry to the point that there is some disagreement within it as to whether Jews are white.

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 70796
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 3171 times
Been thanked: 1171 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:23 pm

I'd say diversity is a side effect of liberty, but that isn't the only way to get diversity.

But of course there's also an avoidance of defining one's terms by politicians who yap about "diversity".

Any argument that implicitly accepts that words have meanings is being rendered "inoperative".
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box.
-- our mission statement plappendale

User avatar
WildCat
Posts: 13842
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:53 am
Location: The 33rd Ward, Chicago
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 330 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by WildCat » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:04 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:Short version:

The question of whether diversity is a good thing sounds innocuous.

That is, until you think about the kind of isolationist ethnic nationalism that would be required to stop it, and how that has historically worked out.

It is worse in the US because we are already way to diverse to form any coherent sense of ethnicity. It is telling that the idea of a dominant ethnic group has expanded from anglo-saxon protestants to pretty much all European ancestry to the point that there is some disagreement within it as to whether Jews are white.
Except that's a strawman, no one is proposing race-based immigration policies. Why don't you address the question of why we should be importing millions of low-skilled, poorly educated poor people? What value to they add to the country?
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

User avatar
RCC: Act II
Posts: 837
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:56 am
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 87 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by RCC: Act II » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:04 pm

WildCat wrote: Except that's a strawman, no one is proposing race-based immigration policies. Why don't you address the question of why we should be importing millions of low-skilled, poorly educated poor people? What value to they add to the country?
They generally become skilled, educated, not poor people who contribute to society and the economy when given the opportunity. Just like people born here, except immigrants tend to appreciate opportunity more.

It helps when they have legal status.

User avatar
WildCat
Posts: 13842
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:53 am
Location: The 33rd Ward, Chicago
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 330 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by WildCat » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:10 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:They generally become skilled, educated,
They you'll be able to show evidencer of this, yes?

And remember, anecdotes are not evidence.
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

User avatar
RCC: Act II
Posts: 837
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:56 am
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 87 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by RCC: Act II » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:18 pm

WildCat wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote:They generally become skilled, educated,
They you'll be able to show evidencer of this, yes?

And remember, anecdotes are not evidence.
While natives bear some upfront costs for the provision of public services to immigrants and their families, the evidence suggests a net positive return on the investment over the long term.
link

User avatar
WildCat
Posts: 13842
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:53 am
Location: The 33rd Ward, Chicago
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 330 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by WildCat » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:42 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
WildCat wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote:They generally become skilled, educated,
They you'll be able to show evidencer of this, yes?

And remember, anecdotes are not evidence.
While natives bear some upfront costs for the provision of public services to immigrants and their families, the evidence suggests a net positive return on the investment over the long term.
link
It gets tiresome when "progressives" constantly use studies of legal imigrants to tout the benefits of illegal immigration. I have no idea how that paper is defining immigrant labor, legal or illegal? Legal in some parts and illegal in others? They don't say.

And it's really hard to take a study seriously that claims with a straight face that there is no effect on wages from importing millions of low-skilled workers for the sole reason they're willing to work for lower wages. It's a circular argument. "We haveto import foreign workers because Americans won't do this job for $10/hr" when the only reason the job pays $10/hr is because of the influx of foreign labor. Ot talks about how immigrants use their wages to buy stuff, but ignores that workers buy even more stuff when they have higher wages.

The reality is when empoloyers don't have access to immigrant labor they are forced to raise wages to attract American labor.

It's no coincidence at all the the state with the highest percentage of illegal immigrants (California) also has the highest cost-of-living-adjusted rate of poverty in the USA as well as the highest inequality of income. Yes, 30% higher than even Mississippi.
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

User avatar
RCC: Act II
Posts: 837
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:56 am
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 87 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by RCC: Act II » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:20 pm

WildCat wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote:
WildCat wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote:They generally become skilled, educated,
They you'll be able to show evidencer of this, yes?

And remember, anecdotes are not evidence.
While natives bear some upfront costs for the provision of public services to immigrants and their families, the evidence suggests a net positive return on the investment over the long term.
link
It gets tiresome when "progressives" constantly use studies of legal imigrants to tout the benefits of illegal immigration. I have no idea how that paper is defining immigrant labor, legal or illegal?
These sentences don't work together.

It did address your wage argument in a rather solid manner. That immigrants and natives are not generally competing for the same jobs, which means the immigrants are often creating new economic activity that creates greater demand that then creates other jobs.

It isn't like all these hillbillies currently pounding opiates were knocked out of the migrant farm worker business by illegal immigration. There are plenty of reasons the labor market sucks for a lot of people, and illegal immigration barely registers. Net migration from Mexico has been zero for years.

One of the people who claims that he can't find domestic workers and thus must import happens to be President right now. He could easily find some of these out of work people and attract them with high enough wages to work at his club, but... no.

Illegal immigration is a way for the rich to distract racists so they don't notice things like the stock market shitting itself over a report showing wages are increasing and maybe start to realize it isn't the brown people fucking them over.

User avatar
ed
Posts: 33035
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:52 pm
Title: Rhino of the Florida swamp
Has thanked: 439 times
Been thanked: 752 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by ed » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:32 pm

RCC: Act II wrote: It isn't like all these hillbillies currently pounding opiates
With some minor changes this sentence would be roundly criticized as being racist.

I don't give a shit, I'd just like consistency.
Wenn ich Kultur höre, entsichere ich meinen Browning!

User avatar
Giz
Posts: 1129
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:07 pm
Location: UK
Has thanked: 144 times
Been thanked: 245 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by Giz » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:35 pm

ed wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote: It isn't like all these hillbillies currently pounding opiates
With some minor changes this sentence would be roundly criticized as being racist.

I don't give a shit, I'd just like consistency.
Pfft. It isn't as if we are sending our best hillbillies to pound opiates.

User avatar
Grammatron
Posts: 33466
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:21 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 1719 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by Grammatron » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:42 pm

RCC: Act II wrote: That immigrants and natives are not generally competing for the same jobs, which means the immigrants are often creating new economic activity that creates greater demand that then creates other jobs.
That's just nonsense.
It isn't like all these hillbillies currently pounding opiates were knocked out of the migrant farm worker business by illegal immigration. There are plenty of reasons the labor market sucks for a lot of people, and illegal immigration barely registers. Net migration from Mexico has been zero for years.
That's just false. The migration from Latin America, via Mexico, has no not been net zero.
One of the people who claims that he can't find domestic workers and thus must import happens to be President right now. He could easily find some of these out of work people and attract them with high enough wages to work at his club, but... no.
Why would he when Illegal Labour LLC can provide him labor at cheaper rates and he doesn't even get to know if they legal or illegal.
Illegal immigration is a way for the rich to distract racists so they don't notice things like the stock market shitting itself over a report showing wages are increasing and maybe start to realize it isn't the brown people fucking them over.
You think all illegal immigrants are brown people? That's incredibly racist.

User avatar
Doctor X
Posts: 67518
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom
Has thanked: 3387 times
Been thanked: 2151 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by Doctor X » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:43 am

That is almost Anax Level Racist.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

WS CHAMPIONS X3!!! NBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup! SB CHAMPIONS X5!!!!!
AL Champions!!!

User avatar
RCC: Act II
Posts: 837
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:56 am
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 87 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by RCC: Act II » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:22 pm

Grammatron wrote:
Illegal immigration is a way for the rich to distract racists so they don't notice things like the stock market shitting itself over a report showing wages are increasing and maybe start to realize it isn't the brown people fucking them over.
You think all illegal immigrants are brown people? That's incredibly racist.

The sentence structure is discussing a racist's thought process. It is clear that it is their perception I am referring to. Not mine.

Don't expect any further responses from me...

User avatar
RCC: Act II
Posts: 837
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:56 am
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 87 times

Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by RCC: Act II » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:15 pm

ed wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote: It isn't like all these hillbillies currently pounding opiates
With some minor changes this sentence would be roundly criticized as being racist.

I don't give a shit, I'd just like consistency.
You may have a point. I make no apology for any snide remarks about people who identify as white, but a hillbilly is more of a ethnic Appalachian subculture, which is a different story, and maybe an offhand reference to a stereotype is out of line.

So yeah. That was bad. I'm not going to claim that it isn't bigoted and could be hurtful in some context. If someone from a rural Appalachian community that lost a loved one to an opiate overdose read that I'd understand their anger and would have no real excuse for it.