## Immigration and the nature of our society

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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### Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

I think that's not a clear cut question. It could be argued that maintaining the status quo requires effort just like directing change in a deliberate direction does.
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Witness
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### Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

WildCat wrote:Would you rather they move the French airport to Poland?

WildCat
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### Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Witness wrote:
WildCat wrote:Would you rather they move the French airport to Poland?
Would you rather move the _______________ airport to Poland?
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### Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Witness wrote:
WildCat wrote:Would you rather they move the French airport to Poland?
Me neither.

Let's move the French airport to Bosnia!
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### Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

↑ In fact I just wanted to call attention to temporary immigration or seasonal workers (e. g. lots of Italians in Switzerland during the fifties; today all the people who cross the border just to go to work; many Moroccans work in Spain for the crops [some have even settled in small remote villages who were dying out – which seems to please everybody –, but that's of course not temporary]).

Something analogous in the US?

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### Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Witness wrote:↑ In fact I just wanted to call attention to temporary immigration or seasonal workers (e. g. lots of Italians in Switzerland during the fifties; today all the people who cross the border just to go to work; many Moroccans work in Spain for the crops [some have even settled in small remote villages who were dying out – which seems to please everybody –, but that's of course not temporary]).

Something analogous in the US?
There was a deal like that with Mexico at one time, but it's really not the same what with over 3000 km of unfortified border and territorial annexations that mostly respected private property.
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### Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Short version:

The question of whether diversity is a good thing sounds innocuous.

That is, until you think about the kind of isolationist ethnic nationalism that would be required to stop it, and how that has historically worked out.

It is worse in the US because we are already way to diverse to form any coherent sense of ethnicity. It is telling that the idea of a dominant ethnic group has expanded from anglo-saxon protestants to pretty much all European ancestry to the point that there is some disagreement within it as to whether Jews are white.

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### Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

I'd say diversity is a side effect of liberty, but that isn't the only way to get diversity.

But of course there's also an avoidance of defining one's terms by politicians who yap about "diversity".

Any argument that implicitly accepts that words have meanings is being rendered "inoperative".
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WildCat
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### Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

RCC: Act II wrote:Short version:

The question of whether diversity is a good thing sounds innocuous.

That is, until you think about the kind of isolationist ethnic nationalism that would be required to stop it, and how that has historically worked out.

It is worse in the US because we are already way to diverse to form any coherent sense of ethnicity. It is telling that the idea of a dominant ethnic group has expanded from anglo-saxon protestants to pretty much all European ancestry to the point that there is some disagreement within it as to whether Jews are white.
Except that's a strawman, no one is proposing race-based immigration policies. Why don't you address the question of why we should be importing millions of low-skilled, poorly educated poor people? What value to they add to the country?
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### Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

WildCat wrote: Except that's a strawman, no one is proposing race-based immigration policies. Why don't you address the question of why we should be importing millions of low-skilled, poorly educated poor people? What value to they add to the country?
They generally become skilled, educated, not poor people who contribute to society and the economy when given the opportunity. Just like people born here, except immigrants tend to appreciate opportunity more.

It helps when they have legal status.

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### Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

RCC: Act II wrote:They generally become skilled, educated,
They you'll be able to show evidencer of this, yes?

And remember, anecdotes are not evidence.
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### Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

WildCat wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote:They generally become skilled, educated,
They you'll be able to show evidencer of this, yes?

And remember, anecdotes are not evidence.
While natives bear some upfront costs for the provision of public services to immigrants and their families, the evidence suggests a net positive return on the investment over the long term.

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### Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

RCC: Act II wrote:
WildCat wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote:They generally become skilled, educated,
They you'll be able to show evidencer of this, yes?

And remember, anecdotes are not evidence.
While natives bear some upfront costs for the provision of public services to immigrants and their families, the evidence suggests a net positive return on the investment over the long term.
It gets tiresome when "progressives" constantly use studies of legal imigrants to tout the benefits of illegal immigration. I have no idea how that paper is defining immigrant labor, legal or illegal? Legal in some parts and illegal in others? They don't say.

And it's really hard to take a study seriously that claims with a straight face that there is no effect on wages from importing millions of low-skilled workers for the sole reason they're willing to work for lower wages. It's a circular argument. "We haveto import foreign workers because Americans won't do this job for $10/hr" when the only reason the job pays$10/hr is because of the influx of foreign labor. Ot talks about how immigrants use their wages to buy stuff, but ignores that workers buy even more stuff when they have higher wages.

The reality is when empoloyers don't have access to immigrant labor they are forced to raise wages to attract American labor.

It's no coincidence at all the the state with the highest percentage of illegal immigrants (California) also has the highest cost-of-living-adjusted rate of poverty in the USA as well as the highest inequality of income. Yes, 30% higher than even Mississippi.
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### Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

WildCat wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote:
WildCat wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote:They generally become skilled, educated,
They you'll be able to show evidencer of this, yes?

And remember, anecdotes are not evidence.
While natives bear some upfront costs for the provision of public services to immigrants and their families, the evidence suggests a net positive return on the investment over the long term.
It gets tiresome when "progressives" constantly use studies of legal imigrants to tout the benefits of illegal immigration. I have no idea how that paper is defining immigrant labor, legal or illegal?
These sentences don't work together.

It did address your wage argument in a rather solid manner. That immigrants and natives are not generally competing for the same jobs, which means the immigrants are often creating new economic activity that creates greater demand that then creates other jobs.

It isn't like all these hillbillies currently pounding opiates were knocked out of the migrant farm worker business by illegal immigration. There are plenty of reasons the labor market sucks for a lot of people, and illegal immigration barely registers. Net migration from Mexico has been zero for years.

One of the people who claims that he can't find domestic workers and thus must import happens to be President right now. He could easily find some of these out of work people and attract them with high enough wages to work at his club, but... no.

Illegal immigration is a way for the rich to distract racists so they don't notice things like the stock market shitting itself over a report showing wages are increasing and maybe start to realize it isn't the brown people fucking them over.

ed
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### Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

RCC: Act II wrote: It isn't like all these hillbillies currently pounding opiates
With some minor changes this sentence would be roundly criticized as being racist.

I don't give a shit, I'd just like consistency.
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Giz
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### Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

ed wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote: It isn't like all these hillbillies currently pounding opiates
With some minor changes this sentence would be roundly criticized as being racist.

I don't give a shit, I'd just like consistency.
Pfft. It isn't as if we are sending our best hillbillies to pound opiates.

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### Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

RCC: Act II wrote: That immigrants and natives are not generally competing for the same jobs, which means the immigrants are often creating new economic activity that creates greater demand that then creates other jobs.
That's just nonsense.
It isn't like all these hillbillies currently pounding opiates were knocked out of the migrant farm worker business by illegal immigration. There are plenty of reasons the labor market sucks for a lot of people, and illegal immigration barely registers. Net migration from Mexico has been zero for years.
That's just false. The migration from Latin America, via Mexico, has no not been net zero.
One of the people who claims that he can't find domestic workers and thus must import happens to be President right now. He could easily find some of these out of work people and attract them with high enough wages to work at his club, but... no.
Why would he when Illegal Labour LLC can provide him labor at cheaper rates and he doesn't even get to know if they legal or illegal.
Illegal immigration is a way for the rich to distract racists so they don't notice things like the stock market shitting itself over a report showing wages are increasing and maybe start to realize it isn't the brown people fucking them over.
You think all illegal immigrants are brown people? That's incredibly racist.

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### Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

That is almost Anax Level Racist.

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RCC: Act II
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### Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Grammatron wrote:
Illegal immigration is a way for the rich to distract racists so they don't notice things like the stock market shitting itself over a report showing wages are increasing and maybe start to realize it isn't the brown people fucking them over.
You think all illegal immigrants are brown people? That's incredibly racist.

The sentence structure is discussing a racist's thought process. It is clear that it is their perception I am referring to. Not mine.

Don't expect any further responses from me...

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### Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

ed wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote: It isn't like all these hillbillies currently pounding opiates
With some minor changes this sentence would be roundly criticized as being racist.

I don't give a shit, I'd just like consistency.
You may have a point. I make no apology for any snide remarks about people who identify as white, but a hillbilly is more of a ethnic Appalachian subculture, which is a different story, and maybe an offhand reference to a stereotype is out of line.

So yeah. That was bad. I'm not going to claim that it isn't bigoted and could be hurtful in some context. If someone from a rural Appalachian community that lost a loved one to an opiate overdose read that I'd understand their anger and would have no real excuse for it.