Immigration and the nature of our society

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by Grammatron » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:15 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
Grammatron wrote:
Illegal immigration is a way for the rich to distract racists so they don't notice things like the stock market shitting itself over a report showing wages are increasing and maybe start to realize it isn't the brown people fucking them over.
You think all illegal immigrants are brown people? That's incredibly racist.

The sentence structure is discussing a racist's thought process. It is clear that it is their perception I am referring to. Not mine.

Don't expect any further responses from me...
Oh please, that tired narrative no longer applies. There is no system holding people of specific races or religious creeds back, nor does it exist on class level. Sure, you can dig up hundreds of racists and ignorant bigots, but this country has never had more freedom of opportunity for any individual than it does today.

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by Mentat » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:17 pm

but this country has never had more freedom of opportunity for any individual than it does today.
This is why Trump won. To make America great again when this wasn't the case.
It's "pea-can", man.

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by Grammatron » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:25 pm

Mentat wrote:
but this country has never had more freedom of opportunity for any individual than it does today.
This is why Trump won. To make America great again when this wasn't the case.
I don't see what that has to do with this conversation.

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by Mentat » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:58 pm

Blaming and punishing ethnic minorities for how the economy is doing isn't related to the conversation? Well if that's the case, I'm out.
It's "pea-can", man.

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by Grammatron » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:00 pm

Mentat wrote:Blaming and punishing ethnic minorities for how the economy is doing isn't related to the conversation? Well if that's the case, I'm out.
Sorry you can't fake outrage with unrelated emotional appeals.

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by Mentat » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:01 pm

"Emotional appeal"

I don't think you know what that phrase means.
It's "pea-can", man.

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by Grammatron » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:06 pm

Mentat wrote:"Emotional appeal"

I don't think you know what that phrase means.
Emotion Appeal: See Mentat's posting history

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by Mentat » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:08 pm

If you're trying to make the case that immigrants are irrational, dangerous, and can't be trusted, then you are quite a convincing data point.
It's "pea-can", man.

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by Grammatron » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:13 pm

Mentat wrote:If you're trying to make the case that immigrants are irrational, dangerous, and can't be trusted, then you are quite a convincing data point.
Makes sense you would confuse anecdotes for data

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by Mentat » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:21 pm

Glad we're past disputing the accuracy of that data point. Not so glad about the confusion of the singular data point with data. Oh well, I guess if English isn't your first language it's easy to be confused. These dammed immigrants should at least learn more about what the locals speak, instead of whatever gobbledygook they used in their homeland..
It's "pea-can", man.

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by Grammatron » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:26 pm

Mentat wrote:Glad we're past disputing the accuracy of that data point. Not so glad about the confusion of the singular data point with data. Oh well, I guess if English isn't your first language it's easy to be confused. These dammed immigrants should at least learn more about what the locals speak, instead of whatever gobbledygook they used in their homeland..
I'm sure glad I'm talking with someone progressive who's insulting me based on my immigration history or command of a language and and not those ignorant hicks who might hate a person for no reason at all.

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by Mentat » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:35 pm

Good, looks like we're both glad now.
It's "pea-can", man.

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by ed » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:02 pm

gnome wrote:I think that's not a clear cut question. It could be argued that maintaining the status quo requires effort just like directing change in a deliberate direction does.
It seems to me that those advocating some sort of change have the responsibility to explain why and why what they propose is better than the status quo.
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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by ed » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:10 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:Short version:

The question of whether diversity is a good thing sounds innocuous.

That is, until you think about the kind of isolationist ethnic nationalism that would be required to stop it, and how that has historically worked out.

It is worse in the US because we are already way to diverse to form any coherent sense of ethnicity. It is telling that the idea of a dominant ethnic group has expanded from anglo-saxon protestants to pretty much all European ancestry to the point that there is some disagreement within it as to whether Jews are white.
Diversity should never be an end, it is nothing more than a possible outcome from a sane policy.

The only purpose for immigration is to enhance the lot of citizens. We are not a global social services provider and while the lot of some is sad, it is not my problem.

People should be considered for entrance if they offer something that we need. Cheap lettuce prices or low costs for menial labor at hotels that will help enrich Paris Hilton simply are non-starters as arguments.

A major factor is an assessment as to how a prospective resident will assimilate. Their beliefs simply do not trump us law. And if they are unable to communicate in english, I would be unlikely to agitate for their entry.

We have something that they want, the question is only what can they offer in exchange.

If diversity (whatever that means today) follows then ok but it is not in the consideration set for entry.
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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by RCC: Act II » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:50 pm

ed wrote: Diversity should never be an end, it is nothing more than a possible outcome from a sane policy.

The only purpose for immigration is to enhance the lot of citizens. We are not a global social services provider and while the lot of some is sad, it is not my problem.

People should be considered for entrance if they offer something that we need. Cheap lettuce prices or low costs for menial labor at hotels that will help enrich Paris Hilton simply are non-starters as arguments.
Why non-starters? Cheap labor helps economic expansion. The idea that restricting the pool of workers will simply cause wages to rise assumes that those businesses will be viable with the increased wages.

If there is a problem with people making too much money, taxes used to build infrastructure and provide services are always a thing.

I'd argue that diversifying the population is a good unto itself, but so it goes. Stagnant cultures die.


A major factor is an assessment as to how a prospective resident will assimilate.
Assimilation implies a static dominant culture and/or ethnicity. The very idea is IMO un-American and a total mirage besides.

Some Yemeni immigrant who barely speaks English and runs a Bodega in New York is more of an American than some tenth generation or whatever white guy in Ohio who thinks the economy should be restructured to provide him with a better market for his outdated job skills. If anyone needs to "assimilate," it is the guy in Ohio.

At least in my opinion.

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by Grammatron » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:53 pm

RCC message to inner city unemployed "lol guys you should just assimilate and stop trying to get the economy to be restructured to provide you with a better market for your outdated job skills"

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by Mentat » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:57 pm

Why non-starters? Cheap labor helps economic expansion. The idea that restricting the pool of workers will simply cause wages to rise assumes that those businesses will be viable with the increased wages.
The money that comes from paying higher wages isn't free. Somebody's got to foot the bill. That means more expensive product, less revenue for the business, and less money to hire other employees.
It's "pea-can", man.

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by Grammatron » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:01 pm

Mentat wrote:
Why non-starters? Cheap labor helps economic expansion. The idea that restricting the pool of workers will simply cause wages to rise assumes that those businesses will be viable with the increased wages.
The money that comes from paying higher wages isn't free. Somebody's got to foot the bill. That means more expensive product, less revenue for the business, and less money to hire other employees.
Everyone should demand higher wages all the way up the economic chain.

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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by ed » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:20 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
ed wrote: Diversity should never be an end, it is nothing more than a possible outcome from a sane policy.

The only purpose for immigration is to enhance the lot of citizens. We are not a global social services provider and while the lot of some is sad, it is not my problem.

People should be considered for entrance if they offer something that we need. Cheap lettuce prices or low costs for menial labor at hotels that will help enrich Paris Hilton simply are non-starters as arguments.
Why non-starters? Cheap labor helps economic expansion. The idea that restricting the pool of workers will simply cause wages to rise assumes that those businesses will be viable with the increased wages.
We are not an agrarian society expanding westward. We need engineers and designers and folks who are going to drive us ahead.


If there is a problem with people making too much money, taxes used to build infrastructure and provide services are always a thing.

I'd argue that diversifying the population is a good unto itself, but so it goes. Stagnant cultures die.
Diversification as a result of a benificial policy is different from diversity for it's own sake and I have no idea what diversity means. I'd like to know what we are talking about rather than a piece of jello nailed to a wall.


A major factor is an assessment as to how a prospective resident will assimilate.
Assimilation implies a static dominant culture and/or ethnicity. The very idea is IMO un-American and a total mirage besides.

Some Yemeni immigrant who barely speaks English and runs a Bodega in New York is more of an American than some tenth generation or whatever white guy in Ohio who thinks the economy should be restructured to provide him with a better market for his outdated job skills. If anyone needs to "assimilate," it is the guy in Ohio.

At least in my opinion.
Assimilation implies no such thing. It suggests a sharing of ideals and aspirations and a respect for law and to a certain extent, traditions.

I think that there is room for both. But that is the way I swing: an inclusive and loving kinda guy.
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Re: Immigration and the nature of our society

Post by gnome » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:20 am

All the questions of "what can you do for the US?" would be a good basis for why we ought to fast track some applicants. But I'm not sure I agree with it being the most significant question of whether to allow an immigration. I think there is value in being a people-magnet that isn't measurable so clearly.

Where I do converge with you is on that idea of assimilation. The best kind of person to allow in is someone that accepts the core values of liberty and justice. The sort of person that wants what America promises (even if that promise is so often exaggerated or dispensed with when it's inconvenient) is the sort of person that will start being one of the ones that delivers on that promise to others. Now if we can figure out how to detect that in people, we're off to a great start.

Funny thing is, I think that idea is more infectious than we might think--I think it can change someone that didn't think they believed in it.
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